On the Radio

[Harry D]

Hey Abby,

There's three points from your post that I'd be willing to concede:

Signs of strangulation

Skirt hiked up (this is the clincher)

Also fits the pattern sequence-victim killed beginning of month, then the next at end of month, then the next at beginning of month etc.

I find those to be the only similarities worthy of note, yet not damning enough to connect her to the others. With respect, the rest are somewhat misleading. That Tabram was a whore is not in and of itself a connection, since prostitution is generally a dirty game that attracts violence, especially in a dump like Whitechapel. As for the matter of it being unsolved, on that basis we could rule in Smith, Mackenzie, Coles, Thames Torsos et al. Also, while a knife was used in Tabram's murder, it was not the same kind used by the Ripper. No focus on the throat or the genitalia area, either. And as for overkill, what overkill? Jack was an efficient murderer, only taking one or two slashes to the throat to put his victim down.

There's an outside chance that Tabram was a Ripper victim, but, for me, there are too many variables and leaps of faith that have to be allowed for. Though I keep hearing this talk of Jack refining his technique, this wasn't an evolution of technique, it was a revolution. Would you honestly say that the killing of Nichols betrays a transition between Tabram & Chapman? I sure don't. That kind of dramatic change in MO doesn't ring true to me and that's why I remain sceptical.

[Natasha]

Hey Abby,

There's three points from your post that I'd be willing to concede:





I find those to be the only similarities worthy of note, yet not damning enough to connect her to the others. With respect, the rest are somewhat misleading. That Tabram was a whore is not in and of itself a connection, since prostitution is generally a dirty game that attracts violence, especially in a dump like Whitechapel. As for the matter of it being unsolved, on that basis we could rule in Smith, Mackenzie, Coles, Thames Torsos et al. Also, while a knife was used in Tabram's murder, it was not the same kind used by the Ripper. No focus on the throat or the genitalia area, either. And as for overkill, what overkill? Jack was an efficient murderer, only taking one or two slashes to the throat to put his victim down.

There's an outside chance that Tabram was a Ripper victim, but, for me, there are too many variables and leaps of faith that have to be allowed for. Though I keep hearing this talk of Jack refining his technique, this wasn't an evolution of technique, it was a revolution. Would you honestly say that the killing of Nichols betrays a transition between Tabram & Chapman? I sure don't. That kind of dramatic change in MO doesn't ring true to me and that's why I remain sceptical.

Hi Harry

I agree with you that Tabram was not a ripper victim. I suspect the culprit who killed Tabram had refused to pay for having intercourse with her. Prostitution is indeed a job that attracts violence, rape etc. So I have counted her out as being a JTR victim

[Fisherman]

Would you honestly say that the killing of Nichols betrays a transition between Tabram & Chapman?

Why Tabram and Chapman, specifically? Should we not squeeze Nichols in between them?

Nichols had stabs to her genitalia and some seven smallish cuts to the lower abdomen, apart from the cut that opened her up. She had signs of throttling about her.
Tabram had thirtynine stabs, and one of them was a shallow cut to the lower abdomen. She had signs of throttling about her.

If there was a victim BEFORE Nichols and if it was not Tabram - what would you expect to see? A ten inch cut to the abdomen and a stab to the throat?

Both crimes have a lot in common, actually. Not that it must mean that they were perpetrated by the same man, but nothing much tells us that they weren´t either.

The best,
Fisherman

[Harry D]

Why Tabram and Chapman, specifically? Should we not squeeze Nichols in between them?

Is that not what I said?

If we take the amateurish stabbing of Tabram with the careful evisceration of Chapman, we should see something in the middle with Nichols if we're following this train of thought. We do not. Whoever murdered Nichols was an organised killer with a certain level of skill and experience. Did the killer pick this up in a few weeks?

If there was a victim BEFORE Nichols and if it was not Tabram - what would you expect to see? A ten inch cut to the abdomen and a stab to the throat?

I would expect to see the same basic signatures of the canonicals: an attack on the throat and a focus on mutilation. The Ripper was a butcher, he had the know-how required for committing these murders, and yet we're supposed to believe that Tabram was an epiphany, whereby slicing the victim's throat instead of stabbing them a few dozen times would be a wiser course of action? I think he would be aware of this from the start.

Both crimes have a lot in common, actually. Not that it must mean that they were perpetrated by the same man, but nothing much tells us that they weren´t either.

With Tabram we see more signs of uncontrollable rage, a distinctly different MO, and two possible murder weapons (implying that this was a gang hit or she was killed by the two soldiers). That's enough for me.

[Fisherman]

Harry D: Is that not what I said?

If we take the amateurish stabbing of Tabram with the careful evisceration of Chapman, we should see something in the middle with Nichols if we're following this train of thought. We do not. Whoever murdered Nichols was an organised killer with a certain level of skill and experience. Did the killer pick this up in a few weeks?

Actually, many would say that killing out in the open streets is more disorganized than organized. I only just saw Bill Beadle on Youtube saying that the deeds clearly pointed to a psychotic killer.
The fact is, we cannot lay down whether the killer was organized or disorganized, since there are traits from both sides.

If it´s any comfort to you, I also think we are dealing with an organized killer. Couldn´t prove it, though!

What I was after in my last post is that it would be hard to find a mid-level killing between Tabram and Nichols/Chapman. Once you open a woman up, you open her up. Once you reach in and take innards you reach in and take innards. It´s either or. And there are many things connecting the murders that are not all physically defined - the utter silence, the overkill, the thrown-up clothing, the signs of strangulation, the targetting of middle-aged prostitutes...

I would expect to see the same basic signatures of the canonicals: an attack on the throat and a focus on mutilation. The Ripper was a butcher, he had the know-how required for committing these murders, and yet we're supposed to believe that Tabram was an epiphany, whereby slicing the victim's throat instead of stabbing them a few dozen times would be a wiser course of action? I think he would be aware of this from the start.

We may need to be careful to ask any killer to copy his own deeds time and again. In the twenties, in Düsseldorf, the police hunted for one knife stabber, one strangler, one killer who used a pair of scissors and one who bashed in his victims skulls with a hammer.
It was the same man - Peter Kürten.
When they found him, they realized that they had also caught the person who had been setting fire to houses all over town. And killed animals, to drink their blood.
Himself, Kürten fantasized about poisoning the whole town.

What should we postulate his next deed would have been like, if he had not been caught?

With Tabram we see more signs of uncontrollable rage, a distinctly different MO, and two possible murder weapons (implying that this was a gang hit or she was killed by the two soldiers). That's enough for me.

Some will agree. Some will disagree - like me. That should be enough to tell you that it is and remains an unresolved issue. In the thread about whether she was a Ripper victim or not, seven out of ten have actually voted yes. So more than two thirds of this community disagree with you.

The best,
Fisherman

[Harry D]

Some will agree. Some will disagree - like me. That should be enough to tell you that it is and remains an unresolved issue. In the thread about whether she was a Ripper victim or not, seven out of ten have actually voted yes. So more than two thirds of this community disagree with you.

You will notice from the outset that I said Tabram was "probably not" a Ripper victim but there was an "outside chance" of her being included. It's certainly not something that I've taken fully for granted. However, based on everything we know, I'm only drawn to one conclusion. That the majority of voters believe her to be (which accidentally includes myself ), doesn't have any bearing on the truth. 59 Casebook members can't be wrong, eh?

[Fisherman]

You will notice from the outset that I said Tabram was "probably not" a Ripper victim but there was an "outside chance" of her being included. It's certainly not something that I've taken fully for granted. However, based on everything we know, I'm only drawn to one conclusion. That the majority of voters believe her to be (which accidentally includes myself ), doesn't have any bearing on the truth. 59 Casebook members can't be wrong, eh?

Oh yes, they certainly can!

What I was after here was to some extent your certainty that the Ripper was an organized kiler - which I think we can not prove. As I said, I am myself of the opinion that he WAS probably an organized killer, but I am wary of being too certain about matters.

The Tabram case has had a differing impact on Casebookers over time. She has gone very much from not having been a credible victim of the Ripper to almost being included in a "canonical six" version. That in itself is something I find interesting.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Emily Horsnell, Emma Smith, and Martha Tabram, were all killed by the same man/men. Either this man/men disappeared right as the Ripper entered the scene, or these murders are indeed connected.

If you go just by the medical evidence, than Tabram was not a Ripper victim. I get that. But everything other than the medical evidence argues a connection.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott