Martha Tabram - JTR Catalyst

[Fiver]

The main reason I include Tabram as a Ripper victim is something I heard from two separate sources: Richard Jones and Donald Rumbelow. Both said that, while violence against women was common in the East End at the time, murder was not. In fact, the year before, in 1887, there were no murderous attacks on women in that district.

Balancing probability and chance, I think it's more likely that at the time of Tabram's murder, the Ripper was still fine-tuning his M.O. That two similar miscreants decide to set up shop in the East End and mutilate women is too fantastic a thing for me at this juncture. Now, this does not mean I believe that ALL the murders were committed by Jack; I say at least four, probably six. The ones after MJK were likely copycats. But again, I could be wrong, and my ego can handle being disproven.

I agree that Tabram was likely a Ripper victim. If not, her murderer being undetected may have encouraged the Ripper to think he could get away with it, too.

[Losmandris]

It is a really conundrum. As serial killers do change MO I think she probably was, that and the fact that there are a number of similarities. Yes the fact that potentially two weapons were involved does make this particular case more challenging to fit in with the rest. Though this could be explained by some mundane oversight or practicality missed/overlooked in the PM. Like pretty much everything in the case we will just never know. Its a flip a coin job.

[FISHY1118]

The main reason I include Tabram as a Ripper victim is something I heard from two separate sources: Richard Jones and Donald Rumbelow. Both said that, while violence against women was common in the East End at the time, murder was not. In fact, the year before, in 1887, there were no murderous attacks on women in that district.

Balancing probability and chance, I think it's more likely that at the time of Tabram's murder, the Ripper was still fine-tuning his M.O. That two similar miscreants decide to set up shop in the East End and mutilate women is too fantastic a thing for me at this juncture. Now, this does not mean I believe that ALL the murders were committed by Jack; I say at least four, probably six. The ones after MJK were likely copycats. But again, I could be wrong, and my ego can handle being disproven.

Welcome Holmes, I think the more your research Martha Tabram you'll probably come to a different conclusion , she wasn't a ripper victim in my opinion ,also you'll find some high ranking police at the time didnt think so either. Just my thoughts.

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

The main reason I include Tabram as a Ripper victim is something I heard from two separate sources: Richard Jones and Donald Rumbelow. Both said that, while violence against women was common in the East End at the time, murder was not. In fact, the year before, in 1887, there were no murderous attacks on women in that district.

Balancing probability and chance, I think it's more likely that at the time of Tabram's murder, the Ripper was still fine-tuning his M.O. That two similar miscreants decide to set up shop in the East End and mutilate women is too fantastic a thing for me at this juncture. Now, this does not mean I believe that ALL the murders were committed by Jack; I say at least four, probably six. The ones after MJK were likely copycats. But again, I could be wrong, and my ego can handle being disproven.

[Wickerman]

Hello all,

Since Martha is not killed in a manner consistent with the next 2 unsolved murders...(for that matter neither are the following 3 ), one might imagine that her murder was inspiration for someone barely able to control their desire to kill and mutilate.

It gave a mutilator some ideas that became too attractive to resist.

It does seem odd that what was a stabbing attack by 2 individuals, one with a pen knife and one with a larger dagger or bayonet, would spawn another solo killer who doesnt seem interested in stabbing so much,... but stranger things have happened.

Best regards

Hi Mike.

It is hard to imagine a woman being repeatedly stabbed 38 times and not crying out or fighting back, so, was she already dead before the last and deepest wound?

If so, that might imply the long wound through the breastbone was the first wound, once dead the bleeding would be much reduced.
How much blood was she laying in? - we have no clear idea.

There are some news accounts of prostitutes carrying weapons, like a small knife.
Suppose, once she hit the ground, her own knife, a pen-knife, fell out into view. The killer stabbed her with his own weapon, then had trouble removing it. He grabbed her penknife and in his fury, repeatedly began the repetitive stabbing.
Just one killer, but wounds from two knives?

On the other hand..
I find no objection to the two soldier theory, there are accounts of soldiers switching uniforms to confuse anyone who see's them get involved in any pub brawls that often occurred about town.

A Private and a Sergeant might switch jackets just for the night, they apparently were accustomed to doing this. Which may be the cause of PC Barrett's & Pearly Poll's apparent uncertainty on the I.D. parade.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

oops

Hello Jon. Thanks.

So sorry. I have replied there.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Hi Lynn, seeing as how we are sliding off-topic, I switched to a more relevant thread to respond...

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=254536&postcount=22

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

mutilatus interruptus

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"It has always struck me as apparent the Nichols murderer was not able to complete his task . . ."

Very well. Umm, what WAS his task? If it were to remove, say, the uterus, could not he have forgone the extraneous (furtive?) cuts on the abdomen and refocused on organ extraction?

". . . which is why he returned so soon, the next week."

Could he not merely have felt the same urge to kill as before?

"In short, in my view he was interrupted."

Not impossible, but surely conditioned on Annie, not the evidence.

"In that case, why would I oppose the 'interrupted' argument for Liz?"

Because ALL interruption theories are deus ex machina.

"I still do not see that Schwartz's BS-man was her killer."

Only if Israel told the truth.

"There are a number of concerns with the Schwartz account, both from the time he gave, the lack of people in the 'busy?' street, the fact his sighting was not confirmed, and that the Coroner did not call him to the inquest.
It is not an ideal sighting."

Agreed. But IF he told the truth, then there was not an interruption?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"Really, Martha Tabram could be attributable to anyone."

What of Liz?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

Liz?, well, for the longest time I was solidly against her inclusion as a Ripper victim, but more recently, I'm not so sure.

It has always struck me as apparent the Nichols murderer was not able to complete his task, which is why he returned so soon, the next week. In short, in my view he was interrupted.
In that case, why would I oppose the 'interrupted' argument for Liz?

I still do not see that Schwartz's BS-man was her killer. There are a number of concerns with the Schwartz account, both from the time he gave, the lack of people in the 'busy?' street, the fact his sighting was not confirmed, and that the Coroner did not call him to the inquest.
It is not an ideal sighting.

So, was she, or wasn't she? - I'm still pondering

But anyway, Martha is not such a controversial issue for me, whether she was or not, boils down to personal choice, not on any assessment of the evidence.

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

Since Martha is not killed in a manner consistent with the next 2 unsolved murders...(for that matter neither are the following 3 ), one might imagine that her murder was inspiration for someone barely able to control their desire to kill and mutilate.

It gave a mutilator some ideas that became too attractive to resist.

It does seem odd that what was a stabbing attack by 2 individuals, one with a pen knife and one with a larger dagger or bayonet, would spawn another solo killer who doesnt seem interested in stabbing so much,... but stranger things have happened.

Best regards

[lynn cates]

Liz

Hello Jon.

"Really, Martha Tabram could be attributable to anyone."

What of Liz?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

ironic

Hello Don. Thanks.

I was, of course, being ironic. That is PRECISELY my take and I am quite content with more than one killer.

Cheers.
LC

[bolo]

I don't think - if the scenario you outline is remotely true (which frankly, I doubt) that the other two involved in the attack on Emma, ever knew their mate was JtR. (Though they might have suspected.)

If they had known, the pressure to tell someone later in the year would surely have been huge.

Phil

The other two may have developed certain suspicions after Polly's death but despite the pressure that rested on their shoulders, they probably wouldn't have given up their former mate to the police or even casually talked about him to people of their own class or else they would have been in trouble as well. From what I've read about Victorian crime and criminals in Mayhew, Booth and on certain web resources (victorianlondon.org, etc.), the see no evil, speak no evil attitude was very strong in hot spots like the London East End.

Regards,

Boris

[Phil H]

I don't think - if the scenario you outline is remotely true (which frankly, I doubt) that the other two involved in the attack on Emma, ever knew their mate was JtR. (Though they might have suspected.)

If they had known, the pressure to tell someone later in the year would surely have been huge.

Phil

[bolo]

Hello Phil,

I see a numer of possibilities involved with Tabram that COULD (by no means certainly did) influence "Jack".

A) Tabram was killed by the same group who attacked Emma Smith, and the future "Jack" was a member of that group. He subsequently went solo.

this is something I've pondered on for some years as well. Our Jack may have been a member of said group and was the one who always went one or several steps further. Eventually, the group split up because the other two didn't want to put up with Jack's mood swings and overboarding brutality anymore, so he went solo as you said and scored his first kill in George Yard. Then he took it one step further with Polly.

Of course this scenario has several problems, like the change in MO over only three weeks as Lynn already mentioned. Still, I think it could be worth it to keep at it and also take a fresh new look at the East End gangland while we're at it.

Regards,

Boris