Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

[GUT]

G'Day Sunbury

Welcome on board I hope you have a ripping good time here.

So if there are two how astronomical the odds on three?

[Jon Guy]

While it's of course possible for two stranger killers to attack at the same time in the same area, it virtually never happens. And then for the two killers to kill in the same way compounds those odds even more. And then for them both to be so efficient...at some point coincidence just stops being a viable alternative.

Absolutely, Tom, and not forgetting victimology and that the two victims, Stride and Eddowes were like sisters, in appearance and situation.

[Michael W Richards]

In the case of Stride, her single artery severance may well be the significant differentiator, in that the double artery cuts made on Mary Ann and Annie might have been to maximize the rate of blood loss to enable less sloppy field surgery and less volume within the individual organs targeted. There is also the possibility, since both of those double throat cut kills had evidence of nicks on the spinal column...decapitation may have been considered or attempted. There is also the issue of consciousness...Stride would likey have been conscious longer than the previous Canonicals....and would have bled out more slowly.

Martha Tabrams actual murder suggests one of two things when assessing the quantity of wounds...that she was hearty enough to keep making some movements as resistance or in reaction to a stab, which inspired the killer to keep on stabbing until she finally slumps....or that the stabs were delivered so rapidly and so comprehensively... when considering the major organs damage, that the overall length of time needed to stab that many times was minimized.

Interesting that soldiers are trained to stab in the body's most vulnerable locations and to target major organs like the liver and kidneys.

In this murder we have evidence the woman was in the company of a soldier at one point before her murder, and that soldiers were about as a result of the Bank Holiday....allowed to wear short swords and bayonets. When considering that single larger wound and Killeens remarks it isnt a stretch to imagine she fell victim to a drunken soldier in a rage, and that soldier, or a mate, made that larger wound in an attempt to end the assault on the body. She would certainly die after that stab...even if somehow still alive after the pen knife stabs.

Not ripperish in the slightest though...it can only be considered if your of the opinion that a serial killer rapidly evolved based on that assault.

Cheers

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Michael,

As you'll read in my new book, there actually is zero evidence that Tabram was in the company of a soldier, so that theory is out the window. Also, Tabram was unconscious before she was stabbed. There were not defensive wounds on her arms.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Absolutely, Tom, and not forgetting victimology and that the two victims, Stride and Eddowes were like sisters, in appearance and situation.

Stride lived on F&D Street for most of the time from 1882 until 1888 and Eddowes on the same street from 1881 to 1888. They both would have eaten, shopped, and bathed at the same place. And I believe they both worked at the Rothschild buildings. I'm not suggesting they were friends. I think if they were it would have come out in the press. But I'm certain they would have recognized each other on sight and were probably acquaintances.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John Malcolm]

I've always imagined the wound to the heart was the first one inflicted, causing death after she was rendered unconscious. The following wounds, probably with the same knife (again contrary to popular opinion), were more experimental. And yes, I understand the arguments against both views.

[The Good Michael]

I've always imagined the wound to the heart was the first one inflicted, causing death after she was rendered unconscious. The following wounds, probably with the same knife (again contrary to popular opinion), were more experimental. And yes, I understand the arguments against both views.

I agree. A large knife may easily make smaller wounds. Anyone who says differently must come up with a good reason for a guy switching knives. None (good reasons) have been produced this far. Whatever a coroner may say is only speculation and he'd also have to produce a sensible reason. Again, none were forthcoming.

Mike

[Lechmere]

It's not unknown for a serial killer early in his career to take different multiple weapons.

[GUT]

G'Day Lechmere

As I read the evidence, if one person did the double event they had two knives that night.

[Tom_Wescott]

I've always imagined the wound to the heart was the first one inflicted, causing death after she was rendered unconscious. The following wounds, probably with the same knife (again contrary to popular opinion), were more experimental. And yes, I understand the arguments against both views.

Based on my research, the penknife was used to attack the chest/breast area, but did not break through the breast plate. I have trouble imagining this was done AFTER the larger blade successfully penetrated the heart and was withdrawn and put away. I personally think it most likely the penknife was used first and the very last wound inflicted was with the larger blade, which was not a bayonet.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

G'Day Lechmere

As I read the evidence, if one person did the double event they had two knives that night.

Did you read that in the evidence or did you read that in a Ripper book, like Rumbelow? Many authors totally screw that up. There's actually zero evidence that two different knives were used. The only thing known about the knife used on Stride was that it was very sharp. All the nonsense about it being blunt or short or whatnot is fiction. She was cut one time with a very sharp knife. No way to determine length or if the tip was blunt. In fact, since the blade was sharp the point probably was too. The 'blunt' knife was the Thomas Coram knife discovered the next day in another street and never believed to have been the murder weapon, but which gets confused with it by a number of writers.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

It's not unknown for a serial killer early in his career to take different multiple weapons.

Very true. My research has led me to conclude that Emily Horsnell, Emma Smith, and Martha Tabram were killed by the same person/people. Non-medical evidence suggests the later victims were killed by the same person/people, but the medical evidence between Tabram and Nichols is so different that it makes me wonder if it wasn't the same people but a different killer behind the murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

G'Day Tom

I know I've got detailed notes on it somewhere, I'll pull them out when I can and post, you may be right, but I seem to recall that it came from reports on the inquest.

Such a pity that so much is lost to us, the full transcript of the inquests would shed so much light I believe.

[Tom_Wescott]

G'Day Tom

I know I've got detailed notes on it somewhere, I'll pull them out when I can and post, you may be right, but I seem to recall that it came from reports on the inquest.

Such a pity that so much is lost to us, the full transcript of the inquests would shed so much light I believe.

I know the Stride inquest frontwards and backwards. One of the doctors speculated that the blade might have been short because of how and where she was found, but he didn't take into consideration the scarf. It was used to pull her neck up front the stones precisely because the knife wasn't short. The idea that the knife was blunt or dull is a modern myth that should have been put to death years ago but - like so many Stride myths - sticks around to piss me off. Not you or any poster, mind you. You're the ones who've been taken in. The myths themselves and the authors who should know better piss me off.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

G'Day again Tom

Purely from memory it wasn't the bluntness of the knife that I recalled as setting it apart, as I said I'll try and find my notes. I don't understand how or why anyone would but the blunt knife theory.

Maybe after he was finished it might not have been so sharp.