Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

[Abby Normal]

She probably died as a prostitute servicing a customer, Abby. Nothing mysterious about seeing a lifted skirt under such a circumstance.

And, if her killer was the Ripper, why expose the abdomen only to poke it with the knife a few times? The real JTR would have had a field day.

Sam

She probably died as a prostitute servicing a customer, Abby.

so were the others. and murder was very rare even in a place like WC at the time.

Nothing mysterious about seeing a lifted skirt under such a circumstance.

except we all know that at that time the custom was to stand while carrying out the business. Like the others the focus on the abdomen was while they were already lying down from being incapacitated and the ripper had to raise the skirt to access it.

And, if her killer was the Ripper, why expose the abdomen only to poke it with the knife a few times? The real JTR would have had a field day

.[/

because he hadn't reached his mature sig yet

[Sam Flynn]

the clincher for me with Tabram was the raised skirt, just like the others, showing a desire to expose the abdomen.

She probably died as a prostitute servicing a customer, Abby. Nothing mysterious about seeing a lifted skirt under such a circumstance.

And, if her killer was the Ripper, why expose the abdomen only to poke it with the knife a few times? The real JTR would have had a field day.

[Abby Normal]

I take your point, but to suggest there is not some similarity between the murders is debateable. There is the way she is posed, the way she is subdued before stabbing, the concentration on damaging the body rather than the focus on killing, the use of a knife, the neck and genital area focus (the one cut (as opposed to stabbing) of Martha Tabram was from her vagina), the same victim type (age and profession), the same locale, the same timing (both August 1888 and early hours of the morning). Of course this is not conclusive, but neither is it insubstantial.

exactly
the clincher for me with Tabram was the raised skirt, just like the others, showing a desire to expose the abdomen.

[etenguy]

I'm going to agree with Sam here, I've looked at Tabram until my eyes bled but I'm sorry, I'd discount her as a Ripper victim. Apart from the time and place I see nothing that merits including her, the killing looks like rage to me, I do not see even a hint of method, and if you want to say that Martha was the/a stepping stone to Polly, then I think you would see at least some similarity there.

It's an age old argument because it's possible but I think it's always clouded the investigation, if I were you I'd devote my time to Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly, forget Martha.

I take your point, but to suggest there is not some similarity between the murders is debateable. There is the way she is posed, the way she is subdued before stabbing, the concentration on damaging the body rather than the focus on killing, the use of a knife, the neck and genital area focus (the one cut (as opposed to stabbing) of Martha Tabram was from her vagina), the same victim type (age and profession), the same locale, the same timing (both August 1888 and early hours of the morning). Of course this is not conclusive, but neither is it insubstantial.

[etenguy]

It's not so much a case of the focus changing - which is debatable enough anyway - but the method used. Repeatedly punching a sharp object vertically into the body is fundamentally different from making long horizontal slices in the flesh, and nothing in the least bit like opening the flesh to access the organs within.

Perhaps focus was the wrong word, maybe extent of mutilations would be less debatable - particularly as not all later mutilations were flesh opening or to access organs, but appear to be more about dehumanising his victim.

That 'punching a sharp object vertically into the body' is different from 'making long horizontal slices in the flesh' cannot be argued with. Whether that difference necessarily means these two things were not undertaken by the same man is more debatable. It is a different use of the same type of weapon. It may have been that stabbing alone was not sufficiently satisfying for the murderer who having now murdered and pierced flesh, was ready to move onto opening the body. I don't see that progression as any more evolutionary than progressing over time to a total dehumanisation of his victim, even if it did mean using his weapon of choice in a different manner.

[Sox]

But the mutilations inflicted on Tabram are fundamentally different than those inflicted on the eviscerated victim of JTR, if one can truly classify stabs as mutilations. Apart from one or two arguably accidental, or at least incidental, stabs between all five of the canonical victims, their injuries were entirely due to the vicious slicing movements of a knife. Furthermore, apart from Stride, the canonical victims all had their bellies slashed open with a focus on the organs of the lower abdomen, yet what characterises Tabram's wounds is that they were a hail of puncture wounds, inflicted to the chest and neck, with some in the stomach/upper abdomen.

I don't see this as a step change. It's a quantum leap.

I'm going to agree with Sam here, I've looked at Tabram until my eyes bled but I'm sorry, I'd discount her as a Ripper victim. Apart from the time and place I see nothing that merits including her, the killing looks like rage to me, I do not see even a hint of method, and if you want to say that Martha was the/a stepping stone to Polly, then I think you would see at least some similarity there.

It's an age old argument because it's possible but I think it's always clouded the investigation, if I were you I'd devote my time to Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly, forget Martha.

[etenguy]

or Nichols to Chapman.
totally agree

Thanks Abby, it seems we have similar thoughts in this regard.

[Sam Flynn]

or Nichols to Chapman.

All he needed to do there was to pull the intestines out of the flap(s) he'd made and cut something out. I'd say that Nichols was 80% of the way to being a Chapman, and Eddowes 70% to becoming a Kelly. To get from Tabram to Nichols was a much longer journey; even going from Tabram to Stride would have represented quite a change in approach.

[Sam Flynn]

Except, the focus changes across the C5 (Stride caveats again) to take in greater areas of the body until by the time he murders Mary Jane Kelly, the face, legs, breast etc... are all mutilated

It's not so much a case of the focus changing - which is debatable enough anyway - but the method used. Repeatedly punching a sharp object vertically into the body is fundamentally different from making long horizontal slices in the flesh, and nothing in the least bit like opening the flesh to access the organs within.

[Abby Normal]

Except, the focus changes across the C5 (Stride caveats again) to take in greater areas of the body until by the time he murders Mary Jane Kelly, the face, legs, breast etc... are all mutilated. That is a step further than with Catherine Eddowes, where the face got more attention than previous victims and the kidney and colon received more attention, which is a step on from - you get the point - it could be viewed as a progression. The change in attack between Martha Tabram and Mary Ann Nichols is not really any greater than the change between Catherine Eddowes and Mary Jane Kelly.

or Nichols to Chapman.
totally agree

[etenguy]

But the mutilations inflicted on Tabram are fundamentally different than those inflicted on the eviscerated victim of JTR, if one can truly classify stabs as mutilations. Apart from one or two arguably accidental, or at least incidental, stabs between all five of the canonical victims, their injuries were entirely due to the vicious slicing movements of a knife. Furthermore, apart from Stride, the canonical victims all had their bellies slashed open with a focus on the organs of the lower abdomen, yet what characterises Tabram's wounds is that they were a hail of puncture wounds, inflicted to the chest and neck, with some in the stomach/upper abdomen.

I don't see this as a step change. It's a quantum leap.

Except, the focus changes across the C5 (Stride caveats again) to take in greater areas of the body until by the time he murders Mary Jane Kelly, the face, legs, breast etc... are all mutilated. That is a step further than with Catherine Eddowes, where the face got more attention than previous victims and the kidney and colon received more attention, which is a step on from - you get the point - it could be viewed as a progression. The change in attack between Martha Tabram and Mary Ann Nichols is not really any greater than the change between Catherine Eddowes and Mary Jane Kelly.

[Sam Flynn]

I might suggest that the mode of killing/subduing his victim was secondary to the posing/stabbing/cutting/mutilation of his victim.

But the mutilations inflicted on Tabram are fundamentally different than those inflicted on the eviscerated victim of JTR, if one can truly classify stabs as mutilations. Apart from one or two arguably accidental, or at least incidental, stabs between all five of the canonical victims, their injuries were entirely due to the vicious slicing movements of a knife. Furthermore, apart from Stride, the canonical victims all had their bellies slashed open with a focus on the organs of the lower abdomen, yet what characterises Tabram's wounds is that they were a hail of puncture wounds, inflicted to the chest and neck, with some in the stomach/upper abdomen.

I don't see this as a step change. It's a quantum leap.

[Abby Normal]

Allow me to hypothesise that Martha Tabram was his first victim.

I might suggest that the mode of killing/subduing his victim was secondary to the posing/stabbing/cutting/mutilation of his victim. If that is correct, changing mode of killing is not necessarily problematic in the identification of a ripper victim. Once he decided on an efficient means he stuck with it. He may have originally thought that his first method of subduing (which is not entirely clear but may have been a whack to the head or - as suggested by Tom Westcott - garrotting with his arm) would be sufficient and avoid the possibility of becoming blood soaked. He learnt from his first attack and changed to a more guaranteed approach. Pure speculation, but I would argue plausible.

The next major difference between Martha and the C5 is the nature and extent of mutilation. As the murders progress, the intensity increases and the focus changes (usual Stride caveats). Extrapolating backwards, it could be argued Martha Tabram's injuries were the precursor.

I don't argue that Martha Tabram was definitely a Ripper victim, but I think there is a strong correlation - strong enough for me to suggest it is more likely than not that she was a Ripper victim.

totally agree.

especially if you take into consideration all the other similarities with the known victims and also that many serial killers first kill is triggered by something. something that might have angered him with Tabram-which may evidenced by the more "angry" (for lack of better word)style attack on her.

[etenguy]

But his tried and trusted method of dispatch, namely whacking the skull will a blunt instrument, remained constant throughout.

Allow me to hypothesise that Martha Tabram was his first victim.

I might suggest that the mode of killing/subduing his victim was secondary to the posing/stabbing/cutting/mutilation of his victim. If that is correct, changing mode of killing is not necessarily problematic in the identification of a ripper victim. Once he decided on an efficient means he stuck with it. He may have originally thought that his first method of subduing (which is not entirely clear but may have been a whack to the head or - as suggested by Tom Westcott - garrotting with his arm) would be sufficient and avoid the possibility of becoming blood soaked. He learnt from his first attack and changed to a more guaranteed approach. Pure speculation, but I would argue plausible.

The next major difference between Martha and the C5 is the nature and extent of mutilation. As the murders progress, the intensity increases and the focus changes (usual Stride caveats). Extrapolating backwards, it could be argued Martha Tabram's injuries were the precursor.

I don't argue that Martha Tabram was definitely a Ripper victim, but I think there is a strong correlation - strong enough for me to suggest it is more likely than not that she was a Ripper victim.

[Abby Normal]

And graduated to a ball-pein hammer, with both weapons being used to bash in the skulls of the victims, so it's not much of a leap. Had Sutcliffe moved on to deep throat-cuts, however, it would be a rather different matter.

moving from stabbing to slicing the throat isn't much of a leap either Sam