Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

Does that necessarily mean a different killer though? Could it not be the same killer, but armed with a different knife? It is the nature of the knife which determines the injuries which can be inflicted. I now speculate: If this was the killer's first murder it would also be the one from which he would learn the most, and the one following which he would, at some point, decide that he was going to kill again. At that stage a thinking killer would realise that eventually, if he persisted, he was likely to be stop-checked. In that event, his chances of escaping capture would be greatly improved if he was carrying a knife whose possession he could justify. For anyone but a soldier it would be difficult to justify carrying a stabbing weapon such as a bayonet, but much more easy to explain a knife whose design purpose was not that of a weapon of offence. I am not, therefore, discounting the possibility that the change of MO was brought about by the need to change to a different weapon. I am undecided on whether or not Tabram was a victim of the man who went on to kill Nichols and Chapman but an altered MO is not IMHO necessarily conclusive evidence that a different killer was involved.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell,

Martha was killed on the 7th and there was a Bank Holiday on the 6th, which meant that soldiers, active and retired, could wear uniforms and carry some smaller swords and bayonets legally. In this case we have a wound that could have been caused by a "bayonet" during the evening immediately following the Holiday. Its suggestive.

As to one killer using both a "pen knife", (which he used 37 times), and the bayonet, I believe its more probable that a second man used the larger instrument to deliver a final death blow....almost merciful when you consider she was alive and likely conscious for most of the stabs. The pen knife to me suggests that it was the only knife the killer had on him, its why he had to stab her so many times to kill her. Had he a larger knife, he likely would have used it and we would see far fewer wounds. She would have been obviously dying with just a few stabs of a large knife.

I believe the evidence, including the fact that we have a soldier seen waiting for a friend near where the incident occurred and we have a co-worker state they both had soldier clients that night, suggests that a second man was there or arrived to find his mate stabbing away and he finished the woman off to get the killer to leave quickly with him.

The bond between soldiers does not end when they leave the battlefield, I believe the second man assisted his comrade based on that bond.

Another way to look at this is statistically.....how often to killers in frenzied attacks switch weapons from one knife to another? My guess is that killers might switch weapons mid-kill, but it would likely be to acquire a blunt instrument to finish the victim. Switching from one knife to a larger knife for one stab, to me, sounds improbable.

Cheers BW

[Wickerman]

The bond between soldiers does not end when they leave the battlefield, I believe the second man assisted his comrade based on that bond.

Right, there is a quote somewhere from one soldier who explained that they would often switch uniforms just in case they got into trouble while out on the town. It would confuse any witnesses (description would not fit the rank, etc.), which apparently worked in this case too.

Regards, Jon S.

[Steve S]

I wish we knew...If the units involved had the new knife bayonet or the older triangular one...And when "a bayonet" was mentioned,which type was envisioned.........

[RavenDarkendale]

Let's think for a minute.

1) What if the stabber attacked an already dead or dying woman? Could this be JtR's start? This way, he doesn't have to subdue the woman to abuse her.

2) Why wasn't the other soldier tracked down an arrested if the murderer was a soldier? The knife stab through the sternum was a mercy kill, this leaves the other as a violent psycho who needed off the street and out of the military.

3) Looking back at two knives one killer, perhaps the bayonet/dagger was carried as either a kill before the frenzy or a coup de grace afterwards.

BTW, mikey559, I'd like to see your list. Sound intriguing.

My own would go something like this:

Smith: Killed by a gang
Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddows, Mackenzie, Coles: Probable JtR
Stride: Murder by person unknown
Kelly: Murder by person unknown
Mylett: Strangulation, probably not JtR.
Fairy Fay: No real evidence of existence
Milliwood: Possible JtR
Wilson: With wounds so similar to Tabram, a JtR possibility.
Farmer: Attack by person unknown. We have the same "JtR was interrupted" thing here that makes me question the murder of Stride
Jackson: Disposal of the body in the Thames makes this murder different from the accepted JtR MO
Brown: NYC. need to say more?
The Torso Killings indicate a second serial killer at large.

Feel free to agree or disagree and comment as you will. I have been convinced that
I was wrong before, and acknowledged the fact.

God Bless

Darkendale

[Phil H]

What if the stabber attacked an already dead or dying woman?

Is there any evidence that could support such a theory? many things could have happened to any of the victims - all COULD have been attacked by the same three men said to have assaulted Emma Smith - but there are no sightings.... so how would one take this forward?

Could this be JtR's start?

I agree "Jack" had to HAVE a first victim - but Nichols could have been that. No extreme mutilations - no one previously killed that way. Why postulate another?

This way, he doesn't have to subdue the woman to abuse her.

But why asume he could not subdue a woman if necessary. Martha would have been pretty drunk. Polly and Annie would have put up little resistance. Why go down this route at all?

Why wasn't the other soldier tracked down an arrested if the murderer was a soldier? The knife stab through the sternum was a mercy kill, this leaves the other as a violent psycho who needed off the street and out of the military.

The saga of Pearly Poll and the military has been set out many times. Is more necessary. We don't KNOW that the sternum thrust was first or last; a mercy stroke or part of a double assault (i.e. by two men).

Pearly Poll MAY have been frightened of someone or something.

Looking back at two knives one killer, perhaps the bayonet/dagger was carried as either a kill before the frenzy or a coup de grace afterwards.

Perhaps.

Smith: Killed by a gang

Are we sure of that? her story appears to have been doubted at the time 9and since).

Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddows, Mackenzie, Coles: Probable JtR

I'd exclude tabram and put question marks by Eddowes (I am aware of the potential Fenian angles ) and Coles (basically around lapsed time).

Stride: Murder by person unknown

Also my view. I have yet to fully discount Kidney.

Kelly: Murder by person unknown

I agree.

Mylett: Strangulation, probably not JtR.

Dunno.

Fairy Fay: No real evidence of existence NO evidence that she existed.

Milliwood: Possible JtR
Wilson: With wounds so similar to Tabram, a JtR possibility.

Unsure. Maybe.

Farmer: Attack by person unknown. We have the same "JtR was interrupted" thing here that makes me question the murder of Stride

Unsure.

Jackson: Disposal of the body in the Thames makes this murder different from the accepted JtR MO

No.

Brown: NYC. need to say more? No.

The Torso Killings indicate a second serial killer at large.

A second killer who was in all probability aware of "Jack" as suggested by the placing of the Pinchin St torso. But was JtR aware of the torso killer?

Phil H

[Jimi]

Marthas Killer

Hi All
Hi Darkendale
In my opinion i think there is an excellent chace Martha was a JTR victim. The only thing that stops me being positive is the 2 knives. Personally, i don't believe it, but thats for another thread.
However, lets say for arguments sake it wasn't JTR and ,for me, the timeline is all wrong for it being a soldier.
Then, who could it be?
Statistically we should look at Henry Tabram, Marthas estranged husband.
What do we know of him?
Well Henry died in 1890 of consumption so would he have had the strength in 1888 to commit murder? (Hmmm, thinking shallow cuts).
I did find a rather interesting article from-:
Lloyds Weekly Newspaper Suday Oct. 10 1869
Henry Tabram, a costermonger of Starkeys Yard,Islington and a woman named Peck who cohabited with him, were charged with using threatening and menacing language to Martha Tabram by which she went in fear that they intended to do her G.B.H.
The complaintant stated that owing to the drunken and brutal behaviour of her husband, who had been charged with assaulting her, she and her family of SIX children were now living away from him, he agreeing to allow her 6s per week for their support but she had recieved no money for a fortnight.
A few days since her husband and the woman Peck, who lives with him, came to her residence and seeing her at the window called her most filthy and disgusting names, they both said they would do for her, and remarked that if they could not carry out their exucution now they would whenever they met her out. Both the defendants were drunk.
The magistrates said the behaviour was improper but because they were drunk Tabram had nothing to fear. Complaint dismissed.
When the husband and Peck got outside they were set upon and narrowly escaped a severe beating.

Gets you thinking, even though it was years earlier.
Keep Well
Jimi

[Brenda]

.

Hmmmm....that certainly IS some food for thought....I don't believe I've ever heard this story before. But almost 20 years earlier? Well, I guess there are some out there who can carry a mighty grudge!

[Phil H]

I don't buy it, sorry.

A gap from 1869 to 1888 is just too long to make me even remotely suspicious.

For me, I don't see the time gap issue with the soldiers as an issue.

Phil H

[RavenDarkendale]

Smith: Killed by a gang

Are we sure of that? her story appears to have been doubted at the time 9and since)

Well, the blunt object up the vagina, rupturing the walls and causing peritonitis still makes it unlikely for a knife man like JtR

Jackson: Disposal of the body in the Thames makes this murder different from the accepted JtR MO

No.

Phil, do you mean "No, it doesn't make the MO different." or "No, this was not JtR."?

The Torso Killings indicate a second serial killer at large.

A second killer who was in all probability aware of "Jack" as suggested by the placing of the Pinchin St torso. But was JtR aware of the torso killer

I can't see how they couldn't have been aware of each other, which raises the possibility of one or both killers to have murdered with the other's MO to divert suspicion to the other party.

And Phil, I raise questions because people here on the forum usually have more knowledge of the case than I. If there is a mistake in my knowledge of any particular JtR question, someone always corrects me, which makes me pay more attention in my next post. Were we detectives with this case fresh and our responsibility to solve, no frame of reference, no question, and no possibility would be not investigated. Why should we do this here on this forum? And if the matter has been brought up a lot, simply direct me to that thread and perhaps I'll find the answer I'm looking for. I'm learning, mon ami!

God Bless

Darkendale

[Phil H]

Well, the blunt object up the vagina, rupturing the walls and causing peritonitis still makes it unlikely for a knife man like JtR

I agree with that view, but thr whole explanation given by Smith was regarded as odd in terms of timings, she should have passed policemen on the street etc.

IF (and it is a BIG "if") one man was responsible for the attack, and used whatever came to hand - then it just might have been a preliminary attack by "Jack". Against that is ther fact that the woman was apparently not intended to die - or at least murder was not the object. I don't weight this interpretation very highly, but it's there.

Jackson: Disposal of the body in the Thames makes this murder different from the accepted JtR MO

No.

Phil, do you mean "No, it doesn't make the MO different." or "No, this was not JtR."?

I meant Jackson is NOT, IMHO, a Ripper victim.

I can't see how they couldn't have been aware of each other, which raises the possibility of one or both killers to have murdered with the other's MO to divert suspicion to the other party.

It is possible, if the killer was someone like kosminski - a recent immigrant with poor literacy in English that he might have missed the Torso killings. I don't think the Torso Killer could have missed "Jack" given press coverage.

I think the Pichen St torso was brought in from elsewhere. I don't think it was "Jack's" work as the genitals were not much damaged, as I recall.

I raise questions because people here on the forum usually have more knowledge of the case than I. If there is a mistake in my knowledge of any particular JtR question, someone always corrects me, which makes me pay more attention in my next post.

I understand what you are doing. It is a highly stimulating way of making me think!!

Were we detectives with this case fresh and our responsibility to solve, no frame of reference, no question, and no possibility would be not investigated.

I agree, fully.

Why should we do this here on this forum? And if the matter has been brought up a lot, simply direct me to that thread and perhaps I'll find the answer I'm looking for. I'm learning, mon ami!

When I first joined Casebook, I spent quite a lot of time going through all the victim and many suspect threads. I found it fascinating and learned a lot. I also read many of the dissertations, which were also illuminating and contained a lot of material new to me then. I recommend putting some time aside to do that. You can always resurrect the old thread if something interests or puzzles you.

Regards

Phil H

[Barnaby]

While I don't know what the probability is that Tabram was killed by JTR versus another hand, I do know that this probability is greater than Tabram being accosted by a solider AND then killed by JTR, or Tabram being passed out drunk AND then killed by JTR. In an effort to explain, we postulate accounts necessarily less probable than the original statement.

[mklhawley]

What is intriguing to me is that by the time Nichols was murdered, the press was already talking about a serial-type murder spree with Smith, Tabram, and then Nichols. Now, most believe Smith and Tabram were not part of the serial killings. Just think; maybe Tabram sparked a serial killing because of what the press was writing.

Sincerely,

Mike

[curious]

I can't see how they couldn't have been aware of each other, which raises the possibility of one or both killers to have murdered with the other's MO to divert suspicion to the other party.
[/I]
God Bless

Darkendale

I personally have my doubts that JtR had a location or equipment where he could have removed heads and limbs.

Also, the murders attributed to JtR were often so daring and brazen in regards to timing, I wonder that a slower methodical killer, accustomed to killing in a private location, would attempt a JtR type crime.

It's an interesting idea, but doesn't really make sense to me.

curious

[RavenDarkendale]

@ curious

That is one reason why I question the Miller's Court murder of being JtR. It took time for a dissection like that! JtR had never struck indoors. He could have progressed to the point where he was comfortable enough to go home with his victim, but he was by and large a street blitz killer.

Now, if he were in a deserted part of London where he could work undisturbed in some dark passage or yard, he could have copied the torso killer. He wasn't squeamish to use the knife to cut up bodies, that's certain. The reverse is also true, had the torso killer selected a victim which then didn't go as planned, he could have pulled a slash attack out of necessity to kill the selected victim.

We deal in possibilities and probabilities here as we cannot prove anything for lack of evidence. We weigh what precious little we do know for sure, and discuss scenarios that could have taken place. Many that are possible are not probable. Some that seem probable, at least to some, are virtually impossible. We discuss, we argue sometimes, we learn.

God Bless

Darkendale

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Velma

So on a Tabram thread you're effectively making suggestions about Millers Court...or have I misread it?

I won't read too much into it...Either Tabram is a very early phase indeed or she's totally unrelated...personally I think she's the former but have no evidence whatever for thinking so...

All the best

Dave