Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

[GUT]

G'Day Digital

Which do you see as uncontrolled rage, Tabram or the others. I see potentially uncontrolled rage in them all just progressing in its ferocity. Are you saying the mutilations of later victims was methodical.

That supposition would really depend on how long he took, wouldn't it? ie if he did all that in minutes it wasn't [in my opinion] methodical.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo GUT! An attempt to articulate.

G'Day Digital

Which do you see as uncontrolled rage, Tabram or the others. I see potentially uncontrolled rage in them all just progressing in its ferocity. Are you saying the mutilations of later victims was methodical.

That supposition would really depend on how long he took, wouldn't it? ie if he did all that in minutes it wasn't [in my opinion] methodical.

I find it likely Tabram's murder was an uncontrolled rage type thing. Compulsory. I also find it likely the other mutilation murders were calculated. Control over the way things occured seems to be either of personal or practical significance. There is an, what seems apparent, organizational aspect. Pragmatic one might postulate. Just something that keeps coming back to me.

[GUT]

G'Day Digitaldeeperwatson

Thanks for articulating that. I'll mull on t!

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Forgot speed.

Speed is not neccesarily an indicator of rage or lack of control. It is reasonable to work quickly to avoid being detected. To reduce the likeliness of apprehension. It is perfectly possible the murderer was calm as can be throughout the whole process. The method itself lends, to me anyways, the likelihood of the killer being in control. Cool customer or just very detached whilst engaged. Possibly anyways. I can see how it could've functioned as such and how that approach would've been beneficial.

[GUT]

Yea I can't decide if he was cool and calculating or totally frenzied and out of control, i keep swapping between the two opinions.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Yea I can't decide if he was cool and calculating or totally frenzied and out of control, i keep swapping between the two opinions.

I tend to lean more towards the controlled side. It aids to not being captured more possibly than the other. Of course he could've been a complete mess but was able to rely upon some sort of training to get through it. Say if he was a butcher or doctor of military man. A strange place to be might have been where he went after the murders were done. Imagining that possibility even creeps me out a little bit. That's where and when it prob came flooding out. Bad pun not intended.

Re:cool calculating vs frenzied. Maybe both at the same time. Might have been what kept him in check. Competing opposites kinda negated each other into a void type place. Okay getting ojt there. Sleep time.

[GUT]

G'Day Watson

A strange place to be might have been where he went after the murders were done.

And to me that's the big question, where DID he go and why did no one notice the state, I imagine highly agitated, he was in.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

G'Day Watson



And to me that's the big question, where DID he go and why did no one notice the state, I imagine highly agitated, he was in.

Somewhere close that was devoid of other people is prob the best bet. And he likely kept it together on the way or knew how to avoid everyone. I imagine it couldn't have been horribly difficult to do so. Stride maybe being the exception.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi all,

Dr. Killeen would not have been the only doctor to see the wounds. There's no question that two blades were used. The only debate was whether or not it was a sword or dagger that inflicted the heart wound. Bayonet was even ruled out, though not by Killeen, who would not likely have had bayonet wound experience. It was a juryman and not Killeen who suggested a bayonet in the first place, and that was only because of all the soldier talk going on at the time. Soldiers were ruled out before the end of August.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Thanks Tom

That was the sort of expertise I was hoping would surface

All the best

Dave

[Ginger]

History records that there were thousands of complete and partially intact ex-military bayonets available for sale in local markets and black-markets. However, until the relatively recent introduction of the sword bayonet, wouldn't most of these have been of the older and discarded distinctively triangular cross-section "spike" variety?

I've been poking about on some bayonet collector's websites, and it looks to me as though a variety of sword bayonets were issued from the 1850s through the 1870s.

http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/british_bayonets_by_year.htm

I'd been picturing the army as using one type of bayonet at a time, but that doesn't seem to have been the case.

[GUT]

G'Day Ginger and Cogidubnus

Ginger posted:

I've been poking about on some bayonet collector's websites, and it looks to me as though a variety of sword bayonets were issued from the 1850s through the 1870s.

I would have thought that plenty of the sword type would have found the way into markets by 1888.

[J6123]

Yea I can't decide if he was cool and calculating or totally frenzied and out of control, i keep swapping between the two opinions.

G' Day GUT,

i would plump for the latter. to me the Polly Nichols murder looks frenzied rather than controlled and carefully planned out. hard to say if Tabram was killed by the same man. i was going to say that the thoughts of Nichol's killer seem to have been more bizarre than the thoughts of Tabram's killer, not that Tabram's killer wasn't sick in the head..

[GUT]

G'Day J6123

Whoever he, or they were, they clearly had "problems"!

[Tom_Wescott]

G' Day GUT,

i would plump for the latter. to me the Polly Nichols murder looks frenzied rather than controlled and carefully planned out. hard to say if Tabram was killed by the same man. i was going to say that the thoughts of Nichol's killer seem to have been more bizarre than the thoughts of Tabram's killer, not that Tabram's killer wasn't sick in the head..

I don't see any sign of frenzy in the Nichols murder at all. In Tabram, I see a desperation to make sure she was dead. Because Emma lived and talked. But I wouldn't call it a 'frenzy'. He spent a decent amount of time on that landing with Martha. He made no mistakes. Not a single bloody footprint (which is remarkable if you know anything about similar crime scenes), not a single blood drop. Nothing clumsily left behind. No witnesses. Nobody heard a thing or at least admitted to having done so.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

G'Day Tom

Perhaps frenzy was a poor choice of words, what I don't see is a lengthy procedure.