Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

[Toofew]

No problems - it's pretty logical to link bayonet and rifle, but I could imagine other reasons (including those I mentioned) for keeping one if you were used to it. It was me who didn't make myself clear.

I don't see "Jack" the soldier to be honest, but I do think Tabram may have been the victim of two aggreived military mates.

phil

Phil, I believe that someone earlier in the thread put forward the idea that one soldier started the attack and the second soldier finished it in order to get the first one out. To me that makes sense explaining two weapons and the soldiers. It's logical but not definitive.

Be good,

Billy

[Phil H]

Or a younger soldier, maybe losing his virginity, looked after by a mentoring older man. Tabram laughs at the lad, humiliates him or tries to cheat him and the lad strikes out. For all his blows he doesn't kill the woman. The older, more experienced man, delivers the coup de grave.

Abby - there has always been something odd to me about Pearly Poll and the regimental line up. Something fishy. Whether she saw the men, I know not - if the regiment(s) wanted to cover-up a possible embarrassment, I am sure that would not have been difficult - you simply don't put the men under suspicion on parade that day - but say everyone is.

I think the police felt as stymied as everyone else.

But Jack the Soldier doesn't work for me. Sorry.

Phil

[Wickerman]

Or a younger soldier, maybe losing his virginity, looked after by a mentoring older man. Tabram laughs at the lad, humiliates him or tries to cheat him and the lad strikes out. For all his blows he doesn't kill the woman. The older, more experienced man, delivers the coup de grave.

Interesting you should suggest this. Not too long ago I read that only Sergeants, and higher ranks, were allowed to take their bayonet out with them on the town. Lower ranks had to turn them in before leaving Barracks.
Hard to find confirmation of details like this but, if true, it might be consistent with your thinking.
Also, all ranks were issued with a military-style penknife. No mention of having to turn those in.

[sdreid]

Wednesday will be the quasquicentennial of Martha's murder whether Jack did it or not. It's an unsolved killing either way.

[RavenDarkendale]

Given the varying descriptions of witnesses as to the man last seen with any given victim, might not JtR have been something of a disguise expert? Was he dressed as a soldier that night?

I do wonder about the two weapon theory though. The medical examiner seemed certain that two were used. He was there, and none of us were, so we have to assume he knew whereof he spoke. It would be nice if they could have decided which weapon was used first. I like to think of Tabram as a Ripper victim but fitting in two weapons possibly could sink that theory...

The 38 stab wounds from the knife suggest a mad flurry of blows, while the single (bayonet?) stab through the sternum seems more of a controlled. calculated strike. It is hard to imagine one man being both at the same crime scene...

[Phil H]

might not JtR have been something of a disguise expert

Straight out of Agatha Christie or Conan Doyle.

You should read Simon Wood's article in the current Ripperologist.

Phil

[crberger]

Phil H,
Thanks for the tip about the dissertions, it was on to my to-do list, but I may move it up.
I personally am in favor of Tabram and not Stride; JTR had to start somewhere, do we have a list GBH victims with unknown assailants?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Since Martha Tabram is not one of the C5, (she was listed as the #2 victim of the Whitechapel Killer in the press of the day), what do any of you think set off an obviously frenzied attack involving 39 separate stab wounds and what on the surface seems to be two weapons? I say on the surface because the shallow 38 wounds could simply be a lack of directed force while the deep one through the sternum was deliberate and focused.

Do you think it possible that a murderer is likely to go from a vicious stabbing to an equally vicious throat slashing and mutilation?

Frankly, I've never had any problem with Tabram being a JtR victim, probably at least 85% more likely than Stride. I also wonder if MJK wasn't to personal a killing to be attributed to a serial killer like JtR unless she was his true target and the others killed as a warm up. This doesn't fit the usual serial killer profile, as none of the victims were as young and good looking as Mary Kelly, and indeed vary greatly in appearance. This usually means an opportunity killer, instead of a goal-based killer.

God Bless

Darkendale

I think Mary Kelly was undoubtedly a JTR.

I have my doubts with Tabram, as I have trouble understanding that in such a short space of time a killer could go from wildly stabbing to laying a woman down and cutting her throat so that the blood flows away from the attacker. To me, the murder of Tabram wouldn't have caused a sudden realisation that if he stabbed someone repeatedly he would be covered in blood but when on the floor the blood would flow away from him. I imagine JTR knew this before the Tabram attack and he didn't kill Tabram.

I think people get too caught up in the blade of the knife, or the depth of the cuts, when assessing who was and wasn't a JTR. There are too many variables, some of which he wasn't in control of.

The one consistency to me is that JTR had a preference for lying them down and cutting their throats so that the blood flowed away from him (clearly for some other purpose), and to me this makes Stride and Coles much more likely than Tabram.

[crberger]

First of all...

was MT stabbed through her clothing? If JtR is beginning his killing spree would he(or she) know how to work through the all the layers of clothing? Even in August, even in the East End MT was probably wearing several layers of clothing, the killer has to strike through all material, boning, strapping etc. Not at all like striking a person on a battlefield.
I would think, not being a psychological profiler, that JtR had to start somewhere, refine the technique, gain confidence and then proceed to asphyxiation, throat slashing and mutilation.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo crberger and welcome.

was MT stabbed through her clothing? If JtR is beginning his killing spree would he(or she) know how to work through the all the layers of clothing? Even in August, even in the East End MT was probably wearing several layers of clothing, the killer has to strike through all material, boning, strapping etc. Not at all like striking a person on a battlefield.
I would think, not being a psychological profiler, that JtR had to start somewhere, refine the technique, gain confidence and then proceed to asphyxiation, throat slashing and mutilation.

That's the catch isn't. One assumption leads down one path, the other another and they have heavy implications. If Nichols is the first, it appears we have a murderer who had a fully developed method from the onset. If say Annie Millwoood is the first we have a murderer who was developing his method as he went along. Think also about what kind of learning curve he might have had. If he went from Tabram to Nichols that could be very suggestive of many a different thing. If say he had been responsible for the majority of the previous attempts/murders we have a slow learner or maybe one who lacked the resolve, but then something happened to change that. Someone very bad at murder initially or very good initially. This is just a very crude attempt at a potentially indepth concept/discussion etc. Breathy this evening.

[DVV]

Good posts, crberger & dig.

[crberger]

Thanks DVV,

It can be intimidating being here and knowing how much I don't know and what's been gone over before. Plus, while I have worked with prostitutes in different countries in similarly overcrowded, unlit, slums; I am NOT a psychologist.
Does anybody have the coroner's inquest or PM on Tabram? Here's another question: in the time between Tabram and Nichols do we have any reports of women and GBH? If so, how were the injuries sustained? Also do we have any reports of GBH=asphyxiation, plus stabbing? I think someone needs to look at the statistics of the area and GBH to women by person(s) unknown. Maybe going back say, 18 months?
What about other crowded cities beside London? Did JtR start somewhere else, move and then something pushed him(her) over the edge into mutilation?

[DVV]

I know Martha Tabram was rather fat, but looking at her pic, I've always thought that the Illustrated Police News' article (18 August) was right : her swollen face, much more swollen than Chapman's btw, indicates that she's been suffocated first.
And this also points to JtR.

[Haskins]

I've always thought there was a reasonable chance that Martha Tabram was a ripper victim. Same area, around the same time. The nature of her murder appears to have been especially shocking, even for the 1880's, and I think that at the time it was widely believed she was a ripper victim. The police at the time, such as Abberline and Anderton, seemed to have believed it for sure.

The difficulty of course is the difference in MO, but that's not an insurmountable objection, in my own view. I wouldn't want to say for sure, but on balance I'd put the odds 55:44 in favour of Martha being murdered by the ripper.

[Barrister]

I think Tabrum was JtR's first vic. I don't think you find that kind of rage -- the kind that stabs 39 times -- without real hatred and madness. My problem is with including Stride. As for the two knives theory, I have long believed the medical examiner knew Tabrum had recently been in the company of a Guardsman and thought if one of the wounds was made by a saber it would strengthen the Yard's case against one of the two Guardsmen. I am not saying he was lying, but police often share information with MEs just by asking "could it have been ..." such as "could it have been a bayonet because we know she had been with a Guardsman shortly before she was killed."
Barrister