Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

[Harry D]

With respect, Wickerman, your scenario just doesn't ring true to me. I can't see the soldier's mate volunteering to go back and finish off the victim. Much likelier he would advise him to get the hell outta there before any witnesses or coppers caught them instead of going back and increasing the risk tenfold. Also, after the initial frenzy would the attacker have necessarily known that Tabram wasn't dead?

[Abby Normal]

With respect, Wickerman, your scenario just doesn't ring true to me. I can't see the soldier's mate volunteering to go back and finish off the victim. Much likelier he would advise him to get the hell outta there before any witnesses or coppers caught them instead of going back and increasing the risk tenfold. Also, after the initial frenzy would the attacker have necessarily known that Tabram wasn't dead?

Hi Harry
After some thought I have to agree with this. While possible I guess. it seems to me most likely scenario, if two knives were actually used, is that the killer had two knives with him and the smaller knife was used first with larger one used last to finish her off.

[Michael W Richards]

With respect, Wickerman, your scenario just doesn't ring true to me. I can't see the soldier's mate volunteering to go back and finish off the victim. Much likelier he would advise him to get the hell outta there before any witnesses or coppers caught them instead of going back and increasing the risk tenfold. Also, after the initial frenzy would the attacker have necessarily known that Tabram wasn't dead?

Being contrary as a lifestyle choice gives you that position by default. The fact is that soldiers carried the larger weapons that are indicated here due to the Bank Holiday, that soldiers were seen and heard of travelling in pairs that night, and had the large weapon not have been used, Martha could have survived that attack...only to finger her assailant later when recovered.

Soldiers have bonds that the rest of us cannot comprehend, mostly because as civilians we are not protecting each other all day long, and the scenario where a second soldier comes looking for his mate off with a street whore and finds him over a barely breathing woman and in an agitated maybe frightened state over what he has done could easily be moved to finish the job as a mercy kill and protect his friend in the same stroke. I'm not saying that's what Jon intends to put forward, just that the suggestion is very viable when you consider the bonds and the situation.

Whether it personally rings true to you is a matter for you to resolve, not Jon.

[Wickerman]

I think Jon that the dagger was either used first, or last, I don't see the that frenzy halting to change to another weapon for a single stab, or back to the pen knife. From my perspective when you have stabbing wounds that indicate rage, the only thing that would stop him from using that same knife is some damage to it. Then he has to have a second, smaller or larger, weapon on him. I think it starts with the large blade or ends with it. And I believe had a knife become damaged, it would have been discarded there.

Yes Michael.
A single assailant switching from one weapon to another would suggest the first weapon became damaged, like a blade snapping off. I feel sure both Killeene & the press would have made sure this piece of broken blade was mentioned if it was found in the wound.

Which is why I favor the scenario where a final sure lethal blow is delivered to ensure the woman is finally dead, or soon will be. Martha was still bleeding when many of those blows were delivered, I assume the heart beating ended when the large blade was used.

And, this suggests to me a second participant.

[Wickerman]

That was The Star, Jon.

Thankyou again, Christer.

"There are about eight on the chest, inflicted in almost circular form, while the probably fatal one - certainly much the largest and deepest of any - is under the heart" (Star, 8th August 1888)

It doesn't quite say that the (almost) circle was centred on the heart.

Thanks Gareth, evidently I miss-remembered that detail.

[Wickerman]

With respect, Wickerman, your scenario just doesn't ring true to me. I can't see the soldier's mate volunteering to go back and finish off the victim. Much likelier he would advise him to get the hell outta there before any witnesses or coppers caught them instead of going back and increasing the risk tenfold. Also, after the initial frenzy would the attacker have necessarily known that Tabram wasn't dead?

It suggests to me Harry, that Tabram was still alive, the potential for her to identify his buddy, or tell someone who attacked her needs to be dealt with, and quick. She could have hung on to life for long enough to raise the alarm if someone else came by.

Hi Harry
After some thought I have to agree with this. While possible I guess. it seems to me most likely scenario, if two knives were actually used, is that the killer had two knives with him and the smaller knife was used first with larger one used last to finish her off.

Hi Abby.

If that were so, I wonder why a soldier, who presumably knows what it takes to kill someone, would use a penknife in the first place, if he had the more suitable weapon with him?

It only makes sense to me if the soldier used the penknife because it was all he had. And, soldiers do even today, go out on the town in pairs or groups.
They know they are sitting targets for the occasional drunk who thinks he can tussle with a soldier, so they go around together for their own protection as much as comradeship.

Killeene did say the wounds were committed while the victim was alive, so if the soldier had just run off after the multiple stabbings then she may have been found by someone who she could describe her attacker to.
Soldiers tend to think of self preservation when it comes to them against the public. So I see the scenario much like Michael suggested, the soldier's buddy came to his rescue, to finish off this worthless trollop, who if she lived could cause a lot of problems for them.

[Abby Normal]

It suggests to me Harry, that Tabram was still alive, the potential for her to identify his buddy, or tell someone who attacked her needs to be dealt with, and quick. She could have hung on to life for long enough to raise the alarm if someone else came by.




Hi Abby.

If that were so, I wonder why a soldier, who presumably knows what it takes to kill someone, would use a penknife in the first place, if he had the more suitable weapon with him?

It only makes sense to me if the soldier used the penknife because it was all he had. And, soldiers do even today, go out on the town in pairs or groups.
They know they are sitting targets for the occasional drunk who thinks he can tussle with a soldier, so they go around together for their own protection as much as comradeship.

Killeene did say the wounds were committed while the victim was alive, so if the soldier had just run off after the multiple stabbings then she may have been found by someone who she could describe her attacker to.
Soldiers tend to think of self preservation when it comes to them against the public. So I see the scenario much like Michael suggested, the soldier's buddy came to his rescue, to finish off this worthless trollop, who if she lived could cause a lot of problems for them.

inexperienced ripper who was accustomed to carrying a smaller pen knife who had used the smaller pen knife on Millwood, realized he needed something bigger. started carrying around both and in the heat of the moment with Tabram started off with the pen knife and finished with big knife.

although your scenario is possible.

[Wickerman]

inexperienced ripper who was accustomed to carrying a smaller pen knife who had used the smaller pen knife on Millwood, realized he needed something bigger. started carrying around both and in the heat of the moment with Tabram started off with the pen knife and finished with big knife.

Yes, I see the connection, the clasp-knife, but I still fail to see why he would carry both weapons?
What could the penknife/clasp-knife do that a dagger couldn't?

I'm more inclined towards the attack on Ada Wilson as the novice Ripper, as the description of the man isn't too far removed from what the later victims describe.
There are some conflicting reports about how her attacker gained entry. Wilson may not have been straight when giving her side of the story.

[Abby Normal]

Yes, I see the connection, the clasp-knife, but I still fail to see why he would carry both weapons?
What could the penknife/clasp-knife do that a dagger couldn't?

I'm more inclined towards the attack on Ada Wilson as the novice Ripper, as the description of the man isn't too far removed from what the later victims describe.
There are some conflicting reports about how her attacker gained entry. Wilson may not have been straight when giving her side of the story.

Yes I’ve got Wilson in the wheelhouse too. Especially since her attacker looks like blotchy!

The pen knife was what he was used to. Maybe he was a little unsure about the big knife because it was new to him? I don’t know. Just thinker out loud.

[Wickerman]

Yes I’ve got Wilson in the wheelhouse too. Especially since her attacker looks like blotchy!

Ah yes, but he hadn't graduated to the peaked cap yet then?

The pen knife was what he was used to. Maybe he was a little unsure about the big knife because it was new to him? I don’t know. Just thinker out loud.

I wonder what he used his penknife for?
Maybe he was know as Jack the Whittler in those days?

[Sam Flynn]

Ah yes, but he hadn't graduated to the peaked cap yet then?:

It seems he hadn't graduated to the extremely effective method of killing we first see with Polly Nichols, either.

In Millwood's specific case, he hadn't even graduated to multiple stabs to the UPPER body, of course. I don't see the same hand at work with Tabram.

[Harry D]

Soldiers have bonds that the rest of us cannot comprehend, mostly because as civilians we are not protecting each other all day long, and the scenario where a second soldier comes looking for his mate off with a street whore and finds him over a barely breathing woman and in an agitated maybe frightened state over what he has done could easily be moved to finish the job as a mercy kill and protect his friend in the same stroke. I'm not saying that's what Jon intends to put forward, just that the suggestion is very viable when you consider the bonds and the situation.

We're talking about a couple of grenadiers slumming it in Whitechapel, not Band of Brothers here.

I'm not really surprised that this theory appeals to you, Mike, as you wish to atomise the entire case to suit your multi-killer fantasy.

Whether it personally rings true to you is a matter for you to resolve, not Jon.

Not really, because if I can find holes in this theory then others certainly will and have.

[Michael W Richards]

We're talking about a couple of grenadiers slumming it in Whitechapel, not Band of Brothers here.

I'm not really surprised that this theory appeals to you, Mike, as you wish to atomise the entire case to suit your multi-killer fantasy.

Not really, because if I can find holes in this theory then others certainly will and have.

I don't have any specific theory about what this was all about Harry, I do about whom should be looked at as probable victims of a single killer.

The East End Observer on August 18th wrote that Killeen stated that the blow he believed came from the larger weapon would have been enough to break a smaller knife as was used in the many other stab wounds. Its fairly definitive that 2 weapons were used, and that one left a dagger or bayonet sized wound. We know for a fact, forget Poll altogether if you want, that soldiers were out in pairs that night, that they were able to, due to the holiday, wear the exact type of weapon used for Marthas fatal stab, and that a PC gave a story that he came upon one not far from the murder site that was waiting for another off with a girl.

This doesn't have to be any heroic one of story Harry, its simply a fact that the bond between soldiers can be as strong as familial bonds...and what older brother wouldn't help his younger brother out of a serious jam, while at the same time performing a mercy style ending of suffering. Since he is also out with this man, he could also might be seen as a lookout and an accessory. It could also be self protection.

If the first man stabs her wildy, repeatedly, with a small weapon...he does this because he know the wounds are small but that the quantity of stabs will eventually overcome the inadequate size of the blade for committing murder. If that same man also has the dagger or bayonet on him, why would he bother exhausting himself with so many superfluous stabs. Rage created the large number of stabs, but I believe mercy and self preservation were the catalyst for the final one. Seems to me its the only specific, deliberate blow.

[Sam Flynn]

I believe mercy and self preservation were the catalyst for the final one. Seems to me its the only specific, deliberate blow.

It's always had the feel of a coup de grâce to me. It might not have been, of course.

[Harry D]

The East End Observer on August 18th wrote that Killeen stated that the blow he believed came from the larger weapon would have been enough to break a smaller knife as was used in the many other stab wounds. Its fairly definitive that 2 weapons were used, and that one left a dagger or bayonet sized wound. We know for a fact, forget Poll altogether if you want, that soldiers were out in pairs that night, that they were able to, due to the holiday, wear the exact type of weapon used for Marthas fatal stab, and that a PC gave a story that he came upon one not far from the murder site that was waiting for another off with a girl.

This doesn't have to be any heroic one of story Harry, its simply a fact that the bond between soldiers can be as strong as familial bonds...and what older brother wouldn't help his younger brother out of a serious jam, while at the same time performing a mercy style ending of suffering. Since he is also out with this man, he could also might be seen as a lookout and an accessory. It could also be self protection.

If the first man stabs her wildy, repeatedly, with a small weapon...he does this because he know the wounds are small but that the quantity of stabs will eventually overcome the inadequate size of the blade for committing murder. If that same man also has the dagger or bayonet on him, why would he bother exhausting himself with so many superfluous stabs. Rage created the large number of stabs, but I believe mercy and self preservation were the catalyst for the final one. Seems to me its the only specific, deliberate blow.

I'm not disagreeing with your points about the nature of the injuries, more the behaviour of the killers in Wickerman's scenario. Yes, soldiers can form unshakeable bonds and as such that would extend to keeping a vow of silence & covering for a comrade who has committed a serious crime. I can't see the natural human response (soldier or no) in that scenario to be to return to the scene of the crime and shank the victim for good measure, particularly as that grenadier had already been collared by one copper.