Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

[Harry D]

The idea that the Ripper 'refined' his technique after Tabram's murder is quite preposterous to me. This whole 'Oh, I'll have to cut the next one's throat!' as if throat-cutting was this sudden revelation when it comes to murder. No, the Tabram murder has all the hallmarks of a frenzied attack, driven by anger rather than some kind of twisted, visceral fantasy with the canonicals. With Tabram, it looks like murder was the goal of the perpetrator, hence the wild overkill and lack of post-mortem signature.

[John G]

The idea that the Ripper 'refined' his technique after Tabram's murder is quite preposterous to me. This whole 'Oh, I'll have to cut the next one's throat!' as if throat-cutting was this sudden revelation when it comes to murder. No, the Tabram murder has all the hallmarks of a frenzied attack, driven by anger rather than some kind of twisted, visceral fantasy with the canonicals. With Tabram, it looks like murder was the goal of the perpetrator, hence the wild overkill and lack of post-modern signature.

Hi Harry,

To be fair there was a time when I would have agreed with you. However, I now share the opinion of Keppel, et al. (2005), that overkill was a feature of all of the C5 murders. Moroever, as Keppel et al. also point out, there is clear evidence of trauma to the genital area, a very rare feature in modern murders. Coupled with the overall rarity of the crime- I'm not aware of another murder in Whitechapel, either pre or post 1888 which demonstrated anything like the same degree of violence/overkill- convinces me that Tabram was a victim of JtR.

What I think probably happened is that an inexperienced JtR lacked the degree of self-control evident in the C5, where there is evidence of a more refined, clinical technique. Maybe his failure to adopt an efficient means to kill Tabram, instead resorting to haphazard stabbings ,meant that, for him, she took too long to die. Perhaps this made him angry, or maybe Tabram said or did something to inflame his anger? Interestingly, Jean Jordan was easily the most severely mutilated of all of Sutcliffe's murders. The reason he gave was that he became enraged at his failure to find an incriminating £5 note so he went into an uncontrolled rage. An insight into the strange workings of a serial killer's mind!

Anyway, there was a time when even Trevor Marriott appeared to agree with me about Tabram!

Cheers,

John

[Sam Flynn]

Hello John

Moroever, as Keppel et al. also point out, there is clear evidence of trauma to the genital area

Another aspect of the Keppel paper that he and his co-authors over-cook. There may have been (incidental?) trauma to Tabram's pubic area, but it is surely dwarfed by the constellation of nearly 40 deliberate stabs that peppered her upper abdomen, chest and neck. The focus of Tabram's killer was decidedly on the top half of her body, quite unlike what we see in any of the Ripper, or "ripper-like", murders that followed so soon afterwards.

[Colin Roberts]

"I need not do more than merely allude to the extraordinary series of murders which occurred in Whitechapel, which gave rise to the greatest excitement in London."

James Monro,

The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis

~~~

Report of the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis

For the Year 1888

Presented to both Houses of Parliament by Command of Her Majesty

London: Eyre and Spottiswoode, 1889

---

Monro must have been quite the idiot!

If he had simply recognized the gross incompetence and statistical ineptitude of the Superintendent Registrar of the Whitechapel Registration District and Registrar General of Births, Deaths and Marriages in England - that so many of us have been able to discern from behind our keyboards - then he would have grasped the trivial nature of these murders, and would not have squandered the precious resources of the Metropolitan Police Service by dispatching unneeded reinforcements to H Division, and conducting extravagant house-to-house searches therein.

[Cogidubnus]

You Know it never ceases to amaze me the lengths that some people will go to to support a pet theory, however undermined it has become.

Thus, crime statistic reveal that murder was very uncommon in Whitechapel. Well, it is argued, the data must be flawed, mustn't it? Never mind the inconvenient fact that no hard evidence is provided to support this contention.

I wasn't aware that I had a theory...never mind a pet theory...I merely pointed out that knife crime didn't seem to be as rare as some people painted it...and I backed it up with a list of cases...I'm aware I quoted some from outside of 1888, but I never pretended otherwise...

However, if you truly wish to embrace inconvenient truths, go to the newspapers, start counting the number of deceased knife crime victims of 1888 and then compare them with the official statistics for the whole of London for that year...which is quoted as 11...

All the best

Dave

[Colin Roberts]

the official statistics for the whole of London for that year...which is quoted as 11...

By whom?

[Cogidubnus]

That's the figure that was quoted to me earlier in the thread...

[Cogidubnus]

1888 London knife deaths

In the interests of clarity, the (female) knife-death cases I'm aware of so far (and I'm certainly no researcher by any definition) are, (in no particular order):-

Martha Tabram
Polly Nicholls
Annie Chapman
Elizabeth Stride
Catherine Eddowes
Mary Jane Kelly
Hannah Potzdamer
Lucy Clark
Mary Newman
Sarah Brown
Annie Millwood (ok she died some weeks after)
The Scotland Yard Torso
The Southwark Torso
Elizabeth Gorman (possibly a bodged abortion)

There are also two more definite abortion bodges, Emma Wakefield and Eliza Schummacher...

Anyone want to start on the males? I can begin with Joseph Rumbold and Henry Talbot...and there's a kiddie...poor little Percy Brown...there have to be more

All the best

Dave

[Colin Roberts]

In the interests of clarity, ...

What, exactly, does this clarify?

[John G]

In the interests of clarity, the (female) knife-death cases I'm aware of so far (and I'm certainly no researcher by any definition) are, (in no particular order):-

Martha Tabram
Polly Nicholls
Annie Chapman
Elizabeth Stride
Catherine Eddowes
Mary Jane Kelly
Hannah Potzdamer
Lucy Clark
Mary Newman
Sarah Brown
Annie Millwood (ok she died some weeks after)
The Scotland Yard Torso
The Southwark Torso
Elizabeth Gorman (possibly a bodged abortion)

There are also two more definite abortion bodges, Emma Wakefield and Eliza Schummacher...

Anyone want to start on the males? I can begin with Joseph Rumbold and Henry Talbot...and there's a kiddie...poor little Percy Brown...there have to be more

All the best

Dave

Hello,

28 murders are listed by the Metropolitan Police for the whole of London in 1888, the vast majority being domestic murder- well, apart from in Whitechapel that is! This is a dramatic increase on the 9 recorded murders for 1885, 8 for 1886, and 13 for 1887. After 1888, we have 17 recorded murders for 1889, 16 for 1890 and 12 for 1891. 1888 was certainly an extraordinary year for murder, especially in Whitechapel! I mean, the C5 and Tabram alone accounted for almost a quarter of the murders for 1888, and within one tiny district!

Of some of the other murders that you have cited the Scotland Yard Torso is clearly part of a different series of killings: the Thames Torso Murders. As was the Southwark Torso, which was discovered in June 1889, not 1888.Mary Newman, Hannah Potzdamer and Sarah Brown were domestic murders, as were the vast majority of murders for the period (Stubley, 2012).

Now I'm not suggesting that violent crime didn't exist in late Victorian London, of course it did. And, of course, if you're going to expand your criteria to the whole of the Metropolis with its 5.4 million people, rather than just one small district, Whitechapel, you are going to find a number of violent crimes, including knife crimes.

However, the vast majority of these murders were domestic crimes. What there is no evidence of, prior to 1888 Whitechapel, is prostitutes being found in the middle of the street, either mutilated or with their throats cut.

Best wishes,

John

[Cogidubnus]

What, exactly, does this clarify?

That knife-related killings in the Metropolis were not perhaps quite as rare as some of us have hithertofore believed

[Cogidubnus]

Hi John

As was the Southwark Torso, which was discovered in June 1889, not 1888

.

Quite right - my slip...but that still leaves 16 knife-related killings out of a total you're quoting of 28....still a very high proportion...unless the Met's stats (or our interpretation of them) are somehow awry...do we know the basis on which they were compiled? Are they for example homicides or murders excluding manslaughters, or what?

However, the vast majority of these murders were domestic crimes. What there is no evidence of, prior to 1888 Whitechapel, is prostitutes being found in the middle of the street, either mutilated or with their throats cut.

I don't disagree, but then again I don't recall making any distinction between domestic or non-domestic crimes - I was discussing the number of knife-related killings

All the best

Dave

[Colin Roberts]

That knife-related killings in the Metropolis were not perhaps quite as rare as some of us have hithertofore believed

And how rare, precisely, have some of us hitherto believed them to have been?

I don't believe that any of us has seen an "official" statistic pertaining to "knife-related killings in the Metropolis" in 1888. I know that I certainly have not. And if such a statistic did exist, I seriously doubt that it would include the torsos, Millwood, et al.

unless the Met's stats (or our interpretation of them) are somehow awry

"or our interpretation of them"

Hmmmmmm!

do we know the basis on which they were compiled? Are they for example homicides or murders excluding manslaughters, or what?

I do!

You have suggested that something "stinks", and that you are somewhat inclined to believe that it may be the "official" statistics.

What stinks is the inability of many around here to bookmark the statistics once they have been presented. And what really stinks - to high heaven, in fact - is the inability of the same to contextualize the statistics.

Gareth (Sam Flynn) has suggested that the statistics should be viewed with "extreme caution". Nonsense!

They are what they are. They simply need to be viewed in the appropriate context.

[Colin Roberts]

I'm sure that they will be misinterpreted, and perhaps even shat upon, but I'm going to post a review of some of the statistics that I have presented several times over the course of the last four or five years.

They don't include the fact - yes, FACT - that thirteen registered deaths of males between the ages of ten and twenty four¹, throughout England in 1888, were classified as 'Accident' by way of 'Football', but we'll have to make do. I think we all realize that death occurred fairly frequently in Victorian England.

¹ I will admittedly have to double check the age range, but I am certain of the number thirteen.

Watch this space, if you are remotely interested.

[Colin Roberts]

Registered Deaths of Female Adults, Classified as 'Murder', by way of 'Knife'

In Accordance with the Forty-Forth through Fifty-Third Annual Reports of the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England:


Registered Deaths of Female Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder', by way of 'Cut'/'Stab': 1881-1890 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

Registered Deaths of Female Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder', by way of 'Cut'/'Stab'
1881: 4
1882: 3
1883: 7
1884: 6
1885: 1
1886: 2
1887: 2
1888: 2
1889: 5
1890: 5

---

Range: 1 - 7
- Mid-Range (i.e. 'Range Mid-Point'): 4.00

- Median: 3.50

- Mean (i.e. 'Average'): 3.70

- Year, in which We are Most Interested (i.e. 1888): 2.00


Registered Deaths of Female Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder', by way of 'Cut'/'Stab': 1881-1890 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

---

In Accordance with the Forty-Forth through Fifty-Third Annual Reports of the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England:


Registered Deaths of Female Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder', by way of 'Cut Throat': 1881-1890 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

Registered Deaths of Female Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder', by way of 'Cut Throat'
1881: 3
1882: 0
1883: 2
1884: 5
1885: 3
1886: 3
1887: 9
1888: 15
1889: 6
1890: 7

---

Range: 0 - 15
- Mid-Range (i.e. 'Range Mid-Point'): 7.50

- Median: 4.00

- Mean (i.e. 'Average'): 5.30

- Year, in which We are Most Interested (i.e. 1888): 15.00


Registered Deaths of Female Adults (Ages 20 - xx) throughout England, Classified as 'Murder', by way of 'Cut Throat': 1881-1890 (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)