Martha's sons

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wooc. Yes, in 1881, Turner and Martha would have had her kids part of the time. But in 1888, that wasn't the case. I just don't see why or how you settled on Martha's kids as her killers. It just doesn't fit with her life at the time of the murder, the murder location, the condition of her corpse when found, or the post mortem evidence. You will have a hard sell on this one.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Bridewell]

Hi Woocus,

Welcome to the Boards,

Martha's two sons were Frederick John (born 1871) and Charles Henry, born in the following year. I can't find either boy in the school lists on Ancestry.

Regards, Bridewell.

[woocus]

Hi Woocus,

Welcome to the Boards,

Martha's two sons were Frederick John (born 1871) and Charles Henry, born in the following year. I can't find either boy in the school lists on Ancestry.

Regards, Bridewell.

Thanks for that. Firstly, I may have been rather presumptious in naming the brothers as the perpetrators with no viable evidence, so I should apologise for that.
I've subsequently found out that one brother possibly moved to Wales and had a family, the other, possibly moved overseas to America(?) - neither proven.
I am convinced that whoever murdered Martha had a highly personal agenda - which is corroborated by the extent of the stabbing, being specific in body location, as opposed to a nutter stabbing in a frenzy.
I find nothing that says that the brothers were living in a stabilized environment, empirically, it's far more likely they were living in penury.
That doesn't make them murderers, I agree.
I make a calculated assumption that the way Martha was murdered, tells of her being immobilised from behind, and stabbed from the front - therefore 2 perpetrators. This method is also evident in at least the next two murders.
I propose that the perpretators of Martha's murder were completely overlooked in the initial police investigation, they believed themselves to be beyond suspicion, and this led them to consider the next murder.

[Chris Scott]

Frederick John Tabram
Born 1870 St Saviours, Southwark

Married 1890 in Pontypridd, Wales to Ann Thomas

1871 census:
20 Marshall P(lace), St George, London Road
Head: Henry Tabram aged 35 born Whitechapel - Furniture porter
Wife: Martha Tabram aged 21 born Southwark
Children:
Henry Tabram aged 10
Frederick aged 1 month
Both born in Southwark

1881 census:
Workhouse, 35 Thomas Street, Whitechapel
Inmates:
Martha Tabran (sic) aged 30 born Borough, Surrey - Flower hawker
Frederick Tabran aged 8
Charles Tabran aged 7
Both born Borough

1891 census:
3 Llewelyns Row, Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan
Head: Frederick J Tabram aged 22 born London - Coal miner
Wife: Ann Tabram aged 21 born Machynlleth

1901 census:
22 Park Terrace, Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan
Head: Fred. J Tabram aged 32 born London - Coal hewer
Wife: Anne Tabram aged 31 born born Montgomery
Children:
Henry L Tabram aged 9
Elizabeth M Tabram aged 6
William C Tabram aged 2
All born Ystradfodwg

1911 census:
6 East Street, Abertillery, Monmouth
Head: Frederick John Tabram aged 42 born London - Coal Miner Hewer
Wife: Ann Tabram aged 41 born Monmouthshire
Children:
Henry Lewis Tabram aged 19 - Coal Miner Hewer
Elizabeth Mary Tabram aged 17
William Charles Tabram aged 12
Deborah Tabram aged 10
All born in Glamorgan

Years married: 19
Children born: 5
Children living: 4

[woocus]

[QUOTE=Chris Scott;243326]Frederick John Tabram
Born 1870 St Saviours, Southwark

Married 1890 in Pontypridd, Wales to Ann Thomas

Thanks for that, Chris, pretty much tells me this brother was not overly educated. Now for the other brother, lets guess he left for (America) pretty soon after December 1888. Need some proof.

[Ausgirl]

I know this is an old thread, but I found this :


Private Charles Henry Tabram/Tabrum (c.1873-1956)
·Son of Henry Tabrum and Martha White (c.1851-?) of the Parish of St.
Saviour, Southwark, London, Surrey, England.
·British Birth Registration suggests Charles Tabrum was born about 1973 in
Southwark.
·On the 1881 Census Returns for Tower Hamlets, London, Charles, his
mother, listed as a Flower Hawker, and a younger brother are living in the
Whitechapel Workhouse.
·In 1887, Charles Henry Tabrum was a member of a part of 'Home Children'
from the National Boys Refuge, Great Queen Street, London, sent to the
Shaftesbury Boys Home in Hamilton, Ontario.
·He enlisted in Hamilton on 28 July 1915 and was assigned to the C.E.F. 76th
Battalion.
·He was sent to England May 1916 and to France before the end of the year.
·On his return, Charles Tabrum married a widow, Berta Seifert-Wilson of
Hamilton and became a well-known city gardener.
·Died on 18 October 1956, aged 83 years. Buried in the Veterans Section,
Woodland Cemetery, Hamilton.

http://www.wefhs.myhamilton.ca/content/flamborough-home-children

[GUT]

I doubt Charlie was born in 1973.

2nd dot point.

[Ausgirl]

I doubt Charlie was born in 1973.

2nd dot point.

Yeah, its clearly a typo of '1873'.

[GUT]

Yeah, its clearly a typo of '1873'.

Just thought it was funny.

[Mayerling]

Frederick John Tabram
Born 1870 St Saviours, Southwark

Married 1890 in Pontypridd, Wales to Ann Thomas

1871 census:
20 Marshall P(lace), St George, London Road
Head: Henry Tabram aged 35 born Whitechapel - Furniture porter
Wife: Martha Tabram aged 21 born Southwark
Children:
Henry Tabram aged 10
Frederick aged 1 month
Both born in Southwark

1881 census:
Workhouse, 35 Thomas Street, Whitechapel
Inmates:
Martha Tabran (sic) aged 30 born Borough, Surrey - Flower hawker
Frederick Tabran aged 8
Charles Tabran aged 7
Both born Borough

1891 census:
3 Llewelyns Row, Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan
Head: Frederick J Tabram aged 22 born London - Coal miner
Wife: Ann Tabram aged 21 born Machynlleth

1901 census:
22 Park Terrace, Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan
Head: Fred. J Tabram aged 32 born London - Coal hewer
Wife: Anne Tabram aged 31 born born Montgomery
Children:
Henry L Tabram aged 9
Elizabeth M Tabram aged 6
William C Tabram aged 2
All born Ystradfodwg

1911 census:
6 East Street, Abertillery, Monmouth
Head: Frederick John Tabram aged 42 born London - Coal Miner Hewer
Wife: Ann Tabram aged 41 born Monmouthshire
Children:
Henry Lewis Tabram aged 19 - Coal Miner Hewer
Elizabeth Mary Tabram aged 17
William Charles Tabram aged 12
Deborah Tabram aged 10
All born in Glamorgan

Years married: 19
Children born: 5
Children living: 4

Actually the censuses for both 1901 and 1911 list only four children, not five, and none are mentioned (as far as I see) elsewhere.

But it is interesting that neither of the two girls have the name "Martha". Usually family names are somehow passed down. Fred's father's name, "Henry" (who died or left the family between 1871 and 1881 - most likely died) was honored with a grandson getting that name. The closest was Elizbeth's middle name being "Mary".

Possibly the fate of his mother was just too horrible for Fred to have to recall, so he decided not to push her ill-fated name on his daughters.

Jeff

By the way. The genealogical search showed Martha White married Harry Tabram. Where did the moniker, "Martha Turner" pop up from? An earlier marriage? Some relative?

Jeff

[Ausgirl]

Just thought it was funny.

It is!

Anyway, likely not new news but it answers the question of where at least one son ended up.

[Pcdunn]

Actually the censuses for both 1901 and 1911 list only four children, not five, and none are mentioned (as far as I see) elsewhere.

Jeff

The question on the 1911 census re "number of children" would have referred to those born over the person's life, prior to that time. Having listed five children, yet only four living, is not necessarily an error, as the fifth might have been born and died between census years, and so not appeared in them. Maybe the name Martha was given to a daughter who had died very young.

I think the question (which also appears on American national census records of a similar period) may have been meant to find out the infant mortality rate.
Today this information helps genealogists by prompting them to look for another birth certificate they might not otherwise have considered.

[woocus]

Hey, I know I disappeared forever, but am still alive in spite of the doctors prognosis. Whoever the Ripper was, if it was a single person, how does one explain away the blood spattered perpetrator hiding his condition whilst walking/journeying home. Does this not suggest strongly an accomplice/some form of transport?

[MrBarnett]

In 1896, Fred Tabram placed the following advert in Reynolds Newspaper:


TABRAM. - News wanted of Charles H. Tabram. Last heard of in London thirteen years ago. Any news will be thankfully received by his brother, Fred J. Tabram, care of the Editor.

[Sam Flynn]

In 1896, Fred Tabram placed the following advert in Reynolds Newspaper:


TABRAM. - News wanted of Charles H. Tabram. Last heard of in London thirteen years ago. Any news will be thankfully received by his brother, Fred J. Tabram, care of the Editor.

Little did he know that he'd have been better off advertising in the Western Mail or the South Wales Echo.