Martha's sons

[woocus]

Does anyone have any information on Martha's two sons at the time of her death? i.e. Schooling, work history, personality traits? Or can you direct me to research material?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Woocus. I recal that the older one was 17 at the time of Martha's death, and was probably in the work force, whereas the other would have still been in school. I believe they lived with their father, so that would tell you roughly where they went to school. I can look up where Henry Tabram was living at the time. Might I ask what prompted your questions?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello again, Woocus. The following is from the East London Observer of Aug 25th, 1888. I hope this helps in some way, but I don't believe I've ever come across the specific schools her children attended.

The first witness called was Henry Tabram - a sallow complexioned man with iron-grey hair, and wearing a moustache and imperial of the same colour, together with a dark blue serge coat - living at 5, River-terrace, East Greenwich, and described as a foreman packer at a furniture repository

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[woocus]

Martha Tabrams sons

Hi Tom, I've spent yonks going thro the various suspects and according to the police files none of the suggested suspects had convictable evidence against them.
Martha was chucked out by her partner for her drinking and behaviour. If you read Mayhews "London Poor" you will see that these folk lived in abject circumstances, and living near squatter camps here in Cape Town you get a view on just how desparate their circumstances could be.
I understand the sons, 17 and 16 at the time, lived and mutually supported themselves and their mother (and their mother them). I want to explore their living conditions and their emotional profiles.
David M Radka 2004 in Alternative Ripperology Phase 1 gives a profile of the murderer/s and what stands out for me is the statement that these murders had a highly personal aspect.
So either they feature or I'm on my way up the garden path, if their profiles don't fit, I'll next explore her two brothers.
Regards

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Woocus. Martha's children did not live with her. However, I'd like to learn more about John Hewitt, the 21 year old son of Francis Hewitt, who was living with them at the time Martha's body was found 12 feet outside their door.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[woocus]

Hi Woocus. Martha's children did not live with her. However, I'd like to learn more about John Hewitt, the 21 year old son of Francis Hewitt, who was living with them at the time Martha's body was found 12 feet outside their door.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom, I think we're vaguely on the same page here. Someone close to Martha exploded in anger after continued very personal frustration with her and attacked her. I think she was taken from behind, being rather short she was choked by an arm around her throat, the first (Bayonet) type stab possibly thro her breast bone, she's laid on her back by the rear attacker, the frontal attacker then vents his anger whilst she is lying down dying. So I see an alpha male at the front with an accomplice in the subservient but controllable role.
The red haze or adrenalin rush that comes with their attack is an absolute high, which eventually leads to the next murder, after waiting some time to see if they were suspected.
The commonality in looks and age of the victims suggests either a"hate motherfixation" or more believably a victim small and old enough to not offer much resistance.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Woocus. That's very possible. And being inebriated makes it far easier to be strangled into unconsciousness.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

Hi Tom, I think we're vaguely on the same page here. Someone close to Martha exploded in anger after continued very personal frustration with her and attacked her. I think she was taken from behind, being rather short she was choked by an arm around her throat, the first (Bayonet) type stab possibly thro her breast bone, she's laid on her back by the rear attacker, the frontal attacker then vents his anger whilst she is lying down dying. So I see an alpha male at the front with an accomplice in the subservient but controllable role.
The red haze or adrenalin rush that comes with their attack is an absolute high, which eventually leads to the next murder, after waiting some time to see if they were suspected.
The commonality in looks and age of the victims suggests either a"hate motherfixation" or more believably a victim small and old enough to not offer much resistance.

so you think martha Tabrams sons were Jack the Ripper?

[woocus]

so you think martha Tabrams sons were Jack the Ripper?

I need to find out the personality traits and living conditions and whether the sons worked or were still at school etc to expand further, but after much thought, I'm pretty confident the soldiers had moved on by 2.30am, that who ever murdered Martha had a close personal relationship with her, there were two people involved, and that the "high"triggered by this murder encouraged the next ones. I doubt whether Martha's two older brothers will fit the profile, but it is a possibility.
I surmise there is an alpha male with pathalogical tendencies, supported by a partner who is subservient but much in the control of the other. Martha's murder is not planned, it was supposed to be a mugging that went wrong when she was strangled (inadvertently).
The second murder three weeks later is a return to the adrenalin rush of the first, the victim is small so as not to resist overtly, by now the murders have escaped the immediate suspicion of the police.
I could go on but would like info before further projections. (I'm in hospital for a week from tomorrow so will only check back in a weeks time)

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Woocus. I'm sorry to hear you're in the hospital. I hope you're out in no time! Regarding Martha, I agree there's evidence of two killers, one more in control, as you say. However, I'm confused by your proposal that she knew and may even have been related to her killer(s). The location says to me that she was turning a trick and not catching up with her kids, or friends, etc. And why on earth would anyone go to such trouble to follow Tabram into that building just to mug her? This could have been done out on the street with little danger of it escalating into murder. Considering the blow to her head, it seems to me they could easily have succeeded in taking whatever little she had and getting away without resorting to murder and overkill.

I take it you exclude Emma Smith and consider Tabram the first of a series of murders? That's interesting considering you believe Tabram was killed by more than one man, as we know Smith was.

I can understand some of your conclusions - that Tabram was killed by more than man...but I don't see at all how you came to conclude her killers knew her, let alone were related to her. When you get the chance, if you could expound, I'd be intrigued to read it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[woocus]

Martha's sons

Hi Woocus. I'm sorry to hear you're in the hospital. I hope you're out in no time! Regarding Martha, I agree there's evidence of two killers, one more in control, as you say. However, I'm confused by your proposal that she knew and may even have been related to her killer(s). The location says to me that she was turning a trick and not catching up with her kids, or friends, etc. And why on earth would anyone go to such trouble to follow Tabram into that building just to mug her? This could have been done out on the street with little danger of it escalating into murder. Considering the blow to her head, it seems to me they could easily have succeeded in taking whatever little she had and getting away without resorting to murder and overkill.

I take it you exclude Emma Smith and consider Tabram the first of a series of murders? That's interesting considering you believe Tabram was killed by more than one man, as we know Smith was.

I can understand some of your conclusions - that Tabram was killed by more than man...but I don't see at all how you came to conclude her killers knew her, let alone were related to her. When you get the chance, if you could expound, I'd be intrigued to read it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom, last operation after 18 months of cancer treatment, back home yesterday, now on recovery road.
I'm speculating without any evidence, which I would far prefer have before expounding, but here's a bit to start with.
1. Let's say that (according to Mayyews "London Poor"), most children as late as 1912 in poverty stricken and poorer areas left school before the age of 12 yrs, and were sent to work.
By the time Martha's boys are 16 and 17 yrs, they would be doing a mans' job for long hours, and maybe even have a common law partner. In other words, tho' young in age, these guys would be fully functional as adults.
If they fitted the costermonger type role, work might have been occasional, and they would have to supplement where and as they could.
2. The Metropolitan Police Service - History - Jack the Ripper, reduces all speculated suspects to a mere four "with no hard evidence exist(ing) against any of them".
3. Patricia Cornell states that whoever murdered Martha Tabram, showed a "highly personal association" with the victim.
4. Emma Smith excludes herself by her testimony.
So, if Martha was killed by the soldier/soldiers, I can understand the initial killing, but how does one explain the methodical stabbing of the various parts of the body, and how did he/they escape obsevation before cleaning up the uniforms they were wearing?
4.On my supposition, whoever killed her possibly did not plan the murder, it started out as a mugging. She is attacked from behind, she falls unconcious unexpectedly, the first stab wound to her breast is a decided one to kill her to ensure she is dead, that triggers the explosion of anger, and the red haze and the methodical stabbing to different parts of her body, a demonstration of the revulsion the murderer feels, that this close relative could stoop to such a degradated existence. The murderers mindset is that Martha is the reason for his/their struggle in life. (and in all the mutilations, a statement to the effect He wishes he'd never been born.)
So, I see a pathological son with a barely controllable temper, exploding after being demeaned beyond his tolerance, all over a long period of time.
The partner is under the control of the alpha male, they lay low waiting to be discovered, after three weeks realise the are not suspected, and the blodd lust returns.
5. Its quite possible one needs a robust explanation for the double murder, especially as Elizabeth Stride doesn't fit the MArtha profile, and Kelly was possibly murdered by only the one brother, given her peculiar circumstances.

That's not to exclude of the murders being done by any of the other suspects, but the physical similarities of Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes points to the same murderer/s.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wooc, thanks for the lengthy reply. But a few things first: Martha was poverty stricken, but her husband and children were not. Emma Smith said she was attacked by two or three men. If Martha was attacked by more than one man (as you believe), then I don't seem how Emma ruled herself out by her statement. If anything, Emma's statement puts her well in the frame as the same murderers (if you believe Tabram was killed by more than one), along with the facts that both were killed on bank holidays and within 300 yards of each other.
Also, 90% of anything Patricia Cornwell has to say about the Ripper is wrong. As for soldiers, there's no reason to believe she was killed by soldiers. You might just be correct in that she was mugged, though. Assuming she made any money that night, none was to be found on her.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[woocus]

Hi Wooc, thanks for the lengthy reply. But a few things first: Martha was poverty stricken, but her husband and children were not. Emma Smith said she was attacked by two or three men. If Martha was attacked by more than one man (as you believe), then I don't seem how Emma ruled herself out by her statement. If anything, Emma's statement puts her well in the frame as the same murderers (if you believe Tabram was killed by more than one), along with the facts that both were killed on bank holidays and within 300 yards of each other.
Also, 90% of anything Patricia Cornwell has to say about the Ripper is wrong. As for soldiers, there's no reason to believe she was killed by soldiers. You might just be correct in that she was mugged, though. Assuming she made any money that night, none was to be found on her.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom, I agree about Patricia Cornwell, I am relying on her forensic and medical experience as regards the personality of the murderer and his connection to the victim.
I need to find detail on Martha's sons, her brothers, John Elliot (your suggestion?) or that someone that I can identify with her.
Emma Smith? I've first got to make a clear connection between the murderer and Martha, and then speculate more fully on who murdered who.
Martha, Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes all fit the same description.
So once I can point to A murderer, I can pull these other strings together.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wooc. No, I didn't suggest John Elliot. I don't think Martha was killed by a family member. As for street mugging, as you suggest Martha was a victim of, it's rarely a domestic crime. Probably close to never.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[woocus]

Hi Wooc, thanks for the lengthy reply. But a few things first: Martha was poverty stricken, but her husband and children were not.
Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom, early days,but can I argue to support my theory of MT and her sons being in severe straights.
From the coronors report on Martha, the following, Mary Bousfiled - 4 Star Place, Commercial road. MT lived with her until 3 weeks before her death. She says "Turner was very good to her, and helped her support 2 children she had by her husband" (Ripper notes#25)
In Wikipedia - Martha Tabram, it is stated that MT and her sons were listed as being overnight inmates at the Whitechapel Union Workhouse Casual Ward at Thomas Street on the Cencus night of 1881.
MT having left her husband in 1875 and reduces her stipend in about 1878.
Turner loses regular employ in 1888 and sells trinkets on the street.