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  • An emerging pattern?

    I know I haven’t posted much over the last few weeks, but I’m still here, still reading and still trying to piece bits of the puzzle together.

    Apart from dipping into the MJK story, due to an obvious interest in the Welsh connection, starting with the earliest killings and working forward seems to be as logical an approach as any – so here I am with Martha Tabram.

    I’m sure that I’m treading a path many of you have been down already but please bear with me, while I try to put my thoughts in order. I’m not going to position this as anything as grand as a possible theory, rather a collection of my current thoughts and reasoning plus some uncertainties / unanswered questions.

    It seems to me that there is a rather distinct pattern to each killing of :
    - Subdue
    - Dispatch
    - Mutilate
    And I’m wondering if what we see with MT, is this pattern starting to emerge.

    Subdue
    Well, it certainly seems that no witnesses heard anything which would lend weight to MT being subdued quickly and quietly with a minimum of fuss. Clearly, I’d prefer some evidence of strangulation here to be consistent with later killings (see my other thread), but in the absence of that I could persuade myself to go along with a blow to the head (effusion of blood between scalp and skull) as being an early manifestation of this. IMO, subduing and doing away with the victim are secondary to the main objective of abdominal mutilation and are merely the most efficient means to an end.

    Dispatch
    Most of what I’ve read about MT suggests that the one distinct wound through the sternum was the final killing stroke, but (and this is complete supposition on my part) could this wound have been made first? *
    It would fit with the pattern established in later murders where the victim was killed prior to any mutilation taking place. In fact, if this proved an inefficient method it would make perfect sense for it to be adapted to throat cutting in later victims. It could also possibly explain the speculation about the two weapons. Would a stab through the sternum be sufficient to blunt, bend or otherwise damage a long blade? And if so, could this lead to our killer switching to another weapon – possibly a blade that Martha had on her person or another knife that he was carrying?

    Mutilation
    With MT we have the skirts pushed up giving access to the abdomen, as we see in later killings – and while we have stabbings rather than cutting and outright mutilation as we see later, it doesn’t take too much imagination to perceive this as a first experimental attempt. I know that this discussion has been done to death and I have absolutely nothing new to add to it. I did find a rather tantalising reference to an abdominal incision in this article http://inpursuitofjacktheripper.com/11.html but without finding a source and absolutely no corroboration, I’m afraid that I’ve dismissed it.

    Anyway, I’ve probably rambled on more than enough - I’m completely open to any input, challenges or just plain ripping apart from those who have spent more time than me in researching this. Don't worry, I won't get all upset and storm off

    *I suppose the main opposition to the puncture wound in the chest being the first injury is that the wound to the heart in itself was sufficient to be fatal and that the other wounds were thought to have been made while she was alive. However, I’m unclear in my reading of the facts whether these were indeed one and the same wound. Was there one wound that went through the sternum and punctured the heart or were these two separate wounds – one to the heart and one to the sternum? And even assuming that it was a single wound, although fatal I’m doubtful as to whether it would have resulted in instant death. I’m not a medical person, but after some searching, I've come across this rather interesting article regarding what happens with stab wounds to the heart http://smj.sma.org.sg/0702/0702smj9.pdf
    Sarah

  • #2
    Hi Sarah

    For what my opinion's worth (probably not a lot!) I think this is a very well thought out posting...

    Subdue
    I'd tend to agree with your conclusions, the minor bleeding from the scalp suggesting to me her head was banged either against a wall or the floor.

    Dispatch
    More difficult to assess, and be aware you're reopening the one knife/two knife controversy! Personally, without commenting either way on the number of blades, I'd go along with the way your footnote was shaping rather than the body of the thread...ie the wound through the breastbone being the coup de grace...I thought the article you linked to was fascinating and may go some way towards justifying some of Dr Killeen's views which have been criticised on these boards.

    Mutilation
    I'm prepared to keep an open mind on this...if one accepts that this case formed part of Jack's "apprenticeship", from which he (and his choice of weaponry) subsequently progressed, then yes maybe...however, it would appear that all the wounds are "stab" type wounds as opposed to the later incised wounds...progression in MO or different MO?

    I don't think anybody can or should simply rip into your musings Sarah, although they will probably take issue with you over them!

    All the best

    Dave
    Last edited by Cogidubnus; 05-15-2012, 08:57 PM. Reason: Spelling correction

    Comment


    • #3
      You're far too kind Dave - and I shall ponder your opinions when my head's a bit clearer than tonight (got a stinking cold )

      Maybe inviting "ripping into" my musings was a little harsh, but I'm honest enough to say that well thought out doesn't equate to right and I've been around forums long enough to know that new posters can easily open old cans of worms even if it's unintentional.

      The way I look at it, harsh challenges will either lead me to form a new and better informed conclusion or if they don't sway me, at least I'll know that I'm comfortable in my own thinking. And I'm big enough not to get offended by people taking issue with my thoughts.

      p.s. I'll don my hard hat for the one knife / two knife controversy. That's just one of those cans of worms that I talked about new posters inadvertently re-opening
      Sarah

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Sarah,

        I agree with everything Dave said. As for the one knife / two knife thing - you will probably get some comments along those lines, but that's the nature of the beast really. The "emerging pattern" conundrum essentially comes down to whether or not MT was a 'Ripper' victim. It's problematic. There are differences which could either indicate a different killer or an experimenting novice, depending on how you interpret them.

        My own personal take (but that's all it is) is that you've got it about right. The alternative requires (at least) two killers with a predilection for abdominal mutilation operating (sorry!) more or less simultaneously. Whilst that is not wholly impossible, I think it extremely unlikely. I think, on reflection, I would consider it a refining of technique (experimentation) rather than an emerging pattern, but I do understand where you're coming from with that.

        Regards, Bridewell.
        I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

        Comment


        • #5
          There were external stab wounds on Kate Eddowes; three in the left groin. Two of them were also short cuts, but described as being inflicted by a pointed instrument.
          Best Wishes,
          Hunter
          ____________________________________________

          When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by SarahLee View Post
            Dispatch
            Most of what I’ve read about MT suggests that the one distinct wound through the sternum was the final killing stroke, but (and this is complete supposition on my part) could this wound have been made first? *
            It would fit with the pattern established in later murders where the victim was killed prior to any mutilation taking place. In fact, if this proved an inefficient method it would make perfect sense for it to be adapted to throat cutting in later victims. It could also possibly explain the speculation about the two weapons. Would a stab through the sternum be sufficient to blunt, bend or otherwise damage a long blade? And if so, could this lead to our killer switching to another weapon – possibly a blade that Martha had on her person or another knife that he was carrying?

            I thought about that some years ago and thought that if the knife were stuck in the chest or difficult to remove that may have been a reason to use a different knife. Or the murderer may have wanted to use a different knife. Nevertheless if two knives were used and the first one being to kill Martha that would fit in with JTRs M.O. nicely wouldnt it!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cogidubnus View Post
              Hi Sarah

              For what my opinion's worth (probably not a lot!) I think this is a very well thought out posting...

              Subdue
              I'd tend to agree with your conclusions, the minor bleeding from the scalp suggesting to me her head was banged either against a wall or the floor.

              Dispatch
              More difficult to assess, and be aware you're reopening the one knife/two knife controversy! Personally, without commenting either way on the number of blades, I'd go along with the way your footnote was shaping rather than the body of the thread...ie the wound through the breastbone being the coup de grace...I thought the article you linked to was fascinating and may go some way towards justifying some of Dr Killeen's views which have been criticised on these boards.

              Mutilation
              I'm prepared to keep an open mind on this...if one accepts that this case formed part of Jack's "apprenticeship", from which he (and his choice of weaponry) subsequently progressed, then yes maybe...however, it would appear that all the wounds are "stab" type wounds as opposed to the later incised wounds...progression in MO or different MO?

              I don't think anybody can or should simply rip into your musings Sarah, although they will probably take issue with you over them!

              All the best

              Dave
              Ah well, I'm still walking around with a box of tissues surgically attached to my side, but at least I can think a bit clearer than I could last night
              And FWIW your opinion's worth plenty.

              I'm glad that you found that article of use, I thought it was an interesting read . . . Amazing what internet searches sometimes turn up, and a medical journal is almost certainly a reliable source, even if it is an old one. Just makes me wonder why it was uploaded to the internet in the first place ?!?!

              I don't suppose we'll ever get a definitive answer on the order of the wounds. The one to the breastbone feels right to me as being inflicted first, but gut feelings, intuition or whatever you want to call it amounts to nothing in terms of evidence . . . so I do wonder if I'm creating patterns where there are none.

              As for your final question of progression in MO or different MO. I'm leaning toward progression when you combine it with the timing of the killing, the position of the body and the rearranged clothing but I'm not ready to completely close my mind to the alternative yet.
              Sarah

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                Hi Sarah,

                I agree with everything Dave said. As for the one knife / two knife thing - you will probably get some comments along those lines, but that's the nature of the beast really. The "emerging pattern" conundrum essentially comes down to whether or not MT was a 'Ripper' victim. It's problematic. There are differences which could either indicate a different killer or an experimenting novice, depending on how you interpret them.

                My own personal take (but that's all it is) is that you've got it about right. The alternative requires (at least) two killers with a predilection for abdominal mutilation operating (sorry!) more or less simultaneously. Whilst that is not wholly impossible, I think it extremely unlikely. I think, on reflection, I would consider it a refining of technique (experimentation) rather than an emerging pattern, but I do understand where you're coming from with that.

                Regards, Bridewell.
                Hi Bridewell,

                Re: Two killers with a predilection for abdominal mutilation. I remember arguing that point quite strongly when I first joined the boards a year ago - and I still feel the same way. IMO the chances of it seem remote at best (although I reserve the right to change my mind once I've looked at the other killings in more detail ) In the case of Tabram though, I'd be even more convinced if there was obvious mutilation rather than simply stabbing.

                The one thing I'm certain of is that I don't buy the "soldier did it" theory. That was my starting hypothesis, but try as I might I just couldn't make the timelines equate to anything sensible and I struggle to see anybody who's been trained to kill trying to deliver a fatal blow to the heart through the chest bone.

                So that leaves me with a 2nd "customer" that night - who might have been "Jack" or might have been totally unconnected to the later murders. If I had to make a call right now, it would be the former.
                Sarah

                Comment


                • #9
                  A Different View?

                  Hi All
                  Hi Sara Lee
                  I agree that there is nothing wrong with your reasonings at all. However, at the risk of sounding like i'm trying to teach, may i post some of my own "musings"?
                  If Martha WAS Jacks first victim why did he pick her?
                  Was the lack of evidence of any striggle because Martha was asleep? She had been drinking all night.
                  Would this back up your sternum blow as Jacks first blow? He's in a rage, comes across Martha asleep/passed out and ...well you can guess the rest.

                  I do however think there is a possibility that Jack was originally a voyeur.
                  Could he have been watching Martha with her soldier freind, he finishes and leaves, she spots Jack lurking on the landing and RECOGNISES him. He draws his knife ..... well you can guess the rest.
                  These are only my own theories and i have no way of proving them. They probably will bring forward some different comments than the 'two knives' comments, I hope.
                  Keep Well
                  Jimi

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Hunter View Post
                    There were external stab wounds on Kate Eddowes; three in the left groin. Two of them were also short cuts, but described as being inflicted by a pointed instrument.
                    Thank you Hunter!!!

                    I haven't come across reference to that yet - although I have another 3 to go, before I look at Kate in any detail. It's something I'll bear in mind.

                    A damn shame that I can't find any source for the reference to an incision to the left of Tabram's groin that I linked to. I'm sure it's a mistake or confusion on the writer's part, else it would have been mentioned elsewhere and there would be some corroboration somewhere. I'd just like to be able to trace it back to its origin so that I could really dismiss it from my mind once and for all.

                    Originally posted by Mitch Rowe View Post
                    I thought about that some years ago and thought that if the knife were stuck in the chest or difficult to remove that may have been a reason to use a different knife. Or the murderer may have wanted to use a different knife. Nevertheless if two knives were used and the first one being to kill Martha that would fit in with JTRs M.O. nicely wouldnt it!
                    Hi Mitch,

                    It certainly does fit very nicely doesn't it?
                    I've promised myself that I'll stick to the facts that I can establish and draw my theories from there, rather than trying to manipulate facts to fit my theories. It's a tantalising prospect though, and there's just as little to disprove it as there is to corroborate it . . .
                    Last edited by SarahLee; 05-16-2012, 08:25 PM.
                    Sarah

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Was the lack of evidence of any struggle because Martha was asleep? She had been drinking all night.
                      Hi Jimi,

                      I did wonder (on another thread) if JtR had attacked his victims while they were sleeping. Eddowes would be difficult though as, if she wanted a kip, she could just have stayed in her cell at Bishopsgate. Chapman, Kelly and possibly Nichols could have been thus taken unawares though.

                      Regards, Bridewell.
                      I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jimi View Post
                        Hi All
                        Hi Sara Lee
                        I agree that there is nothing wrong with your reasonings at all. However, at the risk of sounding like i'm trying to teach, may i post some of my own "musings"?
                        If Martha WAS Jacks first victim why did he pick her?
                        Was the lack of evidence of any striggle because Martha was asleep? She had been drinking all night.
                        Would this back up your sternum blow as Jacks first blow? He's in a rage, comes across Martha asleep/passed out and ...well you can guess the rest.

                        I do however think there is a possibility that Jack was originally a voyeur.
                        Could he have been watching Martha with her soldier freind, he finishes and leaves, she spots Jack lurking on the landing and RECOGNISES him. He draws his knife ..... well you can guess the rest.
                        These are only my own theories and i have no way of proving them. They probably will bring forward some different comments than the 'two knives' comments, I hope.
                        Keep Well
                        Jimi
                        Hi Jimi,

                        Please post away all the musings that you like, it all helps in trying to piece this together, and I'm really not precious about one particular theory or another.

                        IMHO an attack while sleeping is as good an idea as any, and would certainly help to explain how she was overpowered and subdued without any sound. Plus we know that people used the landings to sleep on . . . I'm just not sure how the timeline would work in this instance. Martha entered George Yard buildings with the soldier at 11:45. At 1:50am Elizabeth Mahoney returns home, and sees nobody in the stairwell and at 3:30 we have what is probably a sighting of the body.

                        I'm struggling a bit with Martha finishing with her soldier friend, wandering off somewhere for a couple of hours and then returning to the building later for a sleep. I can see her going back out in search of more business and after having already used George Yard successfully that evening deciding to take another client there . . . but if sleep is all that was on her mind, I don't know why she didn't just stay where she was once the soldier moved on.

                        I'm off to bed with a Lemsip now but I'll give your musings some more consideration tomorrow and see what they mean to my thought processes.

                        Good Night all,
                        Sarah

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Marthas Sleep

                          Hi All
                          Hi Bridewell
                          I agree it would have possibilities if it wasn't for Eddowes, however I was more thinking of Martha being his first victim and the reason why. For me the other victims are a pattern, its trying to fit Martha into this that is the puzzle.
                          Hi Sarah Lee
                          I can see your problem with the timeline. Crow did state that he actually saw a body but didn't think anything of it as he was accustomed to seeing people sleeping on the landings. So did she have to have left and come back? Couldn't she have been passed out/asleep but nobody noticed or took no notice till Jack?
                          May I ask what you think of Connellys(Pearly Poll) actions in the murder? For me, there is a woman with more to tell.

                          Try a hot whisky with a splash of lemon juice for your flu, after two or three who cares about the flu
                          Keep Well
                          Jimi

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Try a hot whisky with a splash of lemon juice for your flu, after two or three who cares about the flu
                            Obviously my sort of man! After five or six who gives a toss about anything?

                            All the best

                            Dave

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm actually more of a vodka girl than a whisky drinker - but I'm not sure that works quite as well served hot with lemon
                              But hot or cold, I reckon 5 or 6 might still have the desired effect
                              Sarah

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