Why were the soldiers never identified?

[Hellrider]

That's a thing which has been bothering be for a considerable amount of time. I always thought it was no wonder if you look at the fact you have unreliable witnesses such as Mary Ann Connolly who, after having reported to the police, simply disappeared.

But now I've read a lot about that and some questions turned up:

1) There was at least one reliable witness, police constable Thomas Barret. Of course, he was under enormous pressure from his superiors who told him how much depended on his testimony. I don't know how experienced he was as a policeman and how policemen were trained at that time, but normally a policeman should be able to properly describe witnesses. This is a very important part of the job.

2) Even if the soldiers were not identified, there must have been records who was on duty and who returned when to the barracks. Especially seen the fact that patrols were held of all regiments in question.

[c.d.]

Hi Hellrider,

Soldiers looking out for their comrades could account for the issue of the records.

Pearly Poll never struck me as being too reliable. However, if she knew something, why did she not come forward when a sizable reward was being offered? You would think that she could have wrangled a few dollars out of it and for someone like her I imagine that that would have been very tempting.

c.d.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Why PC Barret failed in identifying the soldier is a mystery to me too.
In the case of Pearly Poll, however, I have no doubt that her failure was a result of her trying to throw the police off their tracks. She appears to have been a very reluctant witness to begin with, and I have no doubt that she pointed out the two incorrect soliders deliberatly.

She and Tabram appears to have been serving soliders regularly and there is a possibility that Pearly Poll was known to many of them. In my opinion, she was simply too afraid - either for her own safety or for the simple reason that she didn't want to lose her regular customers (who most likely were soldiers).
Soldiers on leave often had sufficient money to spend, taking the girls barhopping and getting the girsl a number of drinks for free, and there is no reason to expect that she would destroy her own livelyhood, even if it meant that the murder of her friend would go unsolved.
A reward is one thing, but losing a whole category of clients is another - not to mention the fact that she might have been scared of personal attacks on herself if she squealed.

All the best

[Celesta]

Taking what Glenn has to say into consideration, it's also possible that the soldiers all began to look alike to Pearly Poll. If that was the case, in addition to the fear she felt, she might hesitate to positively identify someone. She might have thought 'Was this one from that night or was he from the night before?' She could have been uncertain as well as afraid.

On the other hand, I would have been terrified to know that he was still on the street. If I recognized him I would have been more inclined to identify him in case he decided to come back and shut me up.

[c.d.]

I think Glenn is right. She didn't want to get a reputation as being rotten to the corps.

c.d.

[Celesta]

I think Glenn is right. She didn't want to get a reputation as being rotten to the corps.

c.d.

Ha! Funny, CD.

So I guess you guys have esprit de corps?


I think we're both right: fear of losing customers, fear of misidentifying, just plain fear.

[Hellrider]

which still leaves us with the question why Barret didn't succeed or didn't want to succeed in identifying the soldiers

[Celesta]

which still leaves us with the question why Barret didn't succeed or didn't want to succeed in identifying the soldiers

He got a good look at at least one of these guys. Was he so unobservant as to be unable to recognize him again? One wonders if they were real soldiers. Of course that's probably too sensationalistic for some.

[Hellrider]

yeah, plus the guy had good conduct badges..which are not something to obtain easily

[Howard Brown]

Regarding the Pearly Poll saga:

It is more than just likely that the entire scenario of Tabram and the three others allegedly in her company never occurred. The policeman in charge of the investigation apparently felt the original comments were based on nothing tangible.

Speculating as to what Poll's motive(s) were are all fine and well, but if it never occurred, then we'd be speculating for naught.

Inspector Edmund Reid issued a communique to Scotland Yard 49 days after the alleged August 7th incident and at that time...seven weeks later...no one remembered those 2 prostitutes and two soldiers at all in the inquiries made by Reid and his subordinates.

If Poll had been with a man in an alley for 2 minutes, its likely that she wouldn't remember his face. If Poll had been in a bed for 10 minutes with a man, the chances are a little more likely that she would remember his face, but if not, thats understandable.

In this scenario...this alleged scenario of Poll & Tabram and the Guardsmen...Poll claims they were together for 1 hour and 45 minutes together ( forgetting the fact that no one in any of the taprooms remembered them or at least acknowledged remembering them to Reid and Co.) which is an extraordinary amount of time for a street prostitute to be with a man and NOT remember his face when she went to two identity parades and flunked miserably in the latter by identifying a man with an alibi.

What possibly occurred here with Poll is that she got wind of P.C. Barrett's story in the newspaper the day after the murder and set out for her 15 minutes of fame by claiming that this alleged incident of the 4 happy campers gone bad occurred .

15 minutes of fame in Spitalfields/Whitechapel gets one a few drinks on the house in 1888 and in 2008.

I for one think that this alleged scenario never occurred and it at times is used, perhaps unconsciously and unintentionally, to eliminate Tabram from being considered a bona fide Ripper victim.

[Celesta]

Hi Howard,

That leaves us with zippity-do-dah, doesn't it. Not even a myth. Just one big hole. We could be dealing with the same sort of group that Emma Smith and Margaret Hames encountered.

[Howard Brown]

Hi Cellie !

Robert J. McLaughlin mentioned on Rippercast's " A Perfect Savage' episode how some people ( none by specific name,mind you..) will intentionally get themselves into a murder case...and being that the police have to listen to each and every bit of information, from credible and incredible, these "helpful" individuals can often impede an investigation.

Lets face it,Cellie...this wasn't Royalty that was killed in George Yard. Any lead or any bit of advice from the public simply to put some handcuffs and a noose on the culprit's neck would suffice and despite the fact Tabram was a prostitute, I think its a testament to the integrity of Reid & the police that 7 weeks later, Reid still filled out an elaborate report on a street prostitute....which of course is clear on the issue of what Poll's "testimony" was....worthless.

[Celesta]

Hi How,

Yes, worthless it was. Sigh. Even if she had been telling the truth, and you present a good argument that she wasn't, the result was the same, worthless. To me, it makes it almost more possible that Martha met up with proto-Jack. Reid had been investigating Smith's murder, as much as could be done, just prior, so he surely had a sense that they were related. The women weren't related! The murders were!

Thanks, Howard.

[Hellrider]

Very good argument you presented to us Howard! This makes Martha Tabram aka Turner a more likely Ripper victim.

I think maybe the Ripper didn't cut her throat because the situation did not allow him to do so, even if he wanted to. He wasn't used to subdueing his victim quickly and soundlessly, so poor Martha may have struggled to an extent that did not allow him to go for the throat. As far as I remember, Dr. Kileen (spelling?) stated that the stab wound to the heart alone would be lethal, so maybe Jack just pierced her heart in order to kill her quickly and then, out of anger that she had blown his plan, he stabbed away furiously at her body. After having finished, he somehow wasn't interested in doing the mutilations, maybe because he feld uncomfortable within the confines of a building. If you look at the other murder sites, he killed outside, in locations which he could easily escape from. Exceptions include the backyard of 29, Hanbury Street, where he was somehwat confined and likely to be seen by witnesses, but still had the possibility to get away. In Miller's Court, we have a different Ripper: routine in killing, experienced, cold-blooded and extremely cunning...the confinement was no problem there, especially if he was familiar with the lodgings.

[Howard Brown]

Dear Cellie and Hellrider:

Thanks for the remarks.

Just to be clear on the "Tabram-as-Ripper-victim" concept or fact, although I think she may well have been a Ripper victim, my evaluation of the Pearly Poll scenario isn't really what we should base any decision on to include her into the list of Ripper victims...in my opinion. Its not what I would base it on, to be specific. Eliminating the one doesn't necessarily validate the other possibility.

All the reevaluation of the Poll scenario does and its just my personal opinion to be sure, is refocus on WHO committed the Tabram murder, NOT that it was definitely JTR now that the Poll scenario is cast into a new light.

I think its perfectly plausible that Tabram was either hiding from someone or some people on the night she was murdered. I think that its highly unusual ( not impossible) that a prostitute would service a client inside a building on the second floor ( in the U.K., the landing) no more than 4 yards from residents in said building. Tabram "could have" reneged on a sex-for-cash deal with a client as well as come up on some bad eggs during the night she was killed.

What is also alarming is this:

If the above scenario...of Tabram servicing say, Joe Bloggs...a rank and file East Ender...on the second floor was considered, we might accept that.

However, someone with a uniform on, someone who was representative of an organization ...and indeed the Guards were on both levels...getting caught with his pants down...I'll spare you the visuals...by a neighbor or even a policeman who happened to be walking by and heard some noises as those made in coitus...the guardsman would be trapped. Tabram was no stranger to trouble or jail, but for a guardsman to allow himself to get caught there is a bit much. There were undoubtedly other fish in the sea that a guardsman could have cast his line towards, and different areas of the pond from which to cast it.

I think that Tabram should be always considered just as much a victim of the same killer as Nichols was. Its a shame that Tabram's murder gets set aside in the way that it does. Just a personal thing with me,I guess.

And yet, I also think that Tabram may have been hiding from perhaps the same sort of ruffians that killed Emma Smith in the same vicinity...or sleeping in the landing. Just an opinion.