Blood spatter in the Tabram murder

[DVV]

Did you not read my last post ...???

Fisherman

I did, Fish. Have you read mine ? and Magpie's ?
How can you hammer, although implicitly, that "two cutting edges" were a well known distinctive feature of daggers and bayonets ?
It is just false.

[DVV]

What about bayonets ?
Are two cutting edges their distinctive feature as well ?
Anyway, whatever you can argue, there is no evidence to speculate that Killeen thought the wound to have been caused by two cutting edges. If so, once again, he would have been adamant and would have made more than a mere suggestion.

[Fisherman]

Are you saying, Dave, that two cutting edges is not a distinctive feature of daggers? Because if you are embarking on that journey, you may ned to reflect somewhat before you move any further.

As for bayonets, it can easily be established that for example the "pig-sticker" bayonet had no edges at all, only a pointed tip. I am sure that we may find other bayonets too, that equally did not have two cutting edges.

But the fact of the matter is that MOST bayonets DO have two cutting edges.But even that would not be of any paramount importance to my point. If only ONE bayonet in the whole world had been equipped with two cutting edges, it would STILL apply that the weapon that pierced Tabram´s chest COULD have been a bayonet, working from the sound assumption that the hole in her chest gave away a double-edged weapon.

Now, you tell me what is "false" with this!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

David:

"If so, once again, he would have been adamant and would have made more than a mere suggestion."

Ah. You did NOT read my earlier posts. Pity, that.

Now, explain to me very clearly in what manner any knowledge about the number of edges on the weapons that stabbed Tabram would have changed the view of the inquest that it was the stabbings as such that killed her!

Then explain why Killeen did not mention the blood effusion, if it was his duty to mention all the things that could have had an impact on how the crime as such was carried out!

If you should reach the conclusion that it was NOT Killeens duty to report on all of these things, then explain to me exactly what it WAS his duty to report on?

The best
Fisherman

[DVV]

Are you saying, Dave, that two cutting edges is not a distinctive feature of daggers? Because if you are embarking on that journey, you may ned to reflect somewhat before you move any further.

As for bayonets, it can easily be established that for example the "pig-sticker" bayonet had no edges at all, only a pointed tip. I am sure that we may find other bayonets too, that equally did not have two cutting edges.

But the fact of the matter is that MOST bayonets DO have two cutting edges.But even that would not be of any paramount importance to my point. If only ONE bayonet in the whole world had been equipped with two cutting edges, it would STILL apply that the weapon that pierced Tabram´s ches COULD have been a bayonet, working from the sound assumption that the hole in her chest gave away a double-edged weapon.

Now, you tell me what is "false" with this!

The best,
Fisherman

Sorry, Fish, but I still believe it's false. And that was already pointed out by Magpie.
If "two cutting edges" were a distinctive feature of a dagger, then daggers with one cutting edge can't be called daggers. But that is not the case.
Add to this that, even if most daggers have 2 cutting edges, that is not so much known...hence my alluding to Jon's "colloquial" point.
Once again, Fish, if two cutting edges were visible in that wound, why was Killeen making a mere suggestion ? He would have had every reason to be adamant on this crucial point.

[DVV]

Now, explain to me very clearly in what manner any knowledge about the number of edges on the weapons that stabbed Tabram would have changed the view of the inquest that it was the stabbings as such that killed her!

Fisherman

Because that was obviously a crucial point for the investigation, and the investigators in charge were present at the inquest. It could suggest two killers, it could suggest soldiers.
Blood effusion is of far lesser importance.

[Fisherman]

David:

"Because that was obviously a crucial point for the investigation, and the investigators in charge were present at the inquest. It could suggest two killers, it could suggest soldiers"


Ah, NOW it has sunk in" Yes, the two edges was "a crucial point for the investigation"! That is so correct! There is nothing I would change in that wording! It WAS of PARAMOUNT importance to the investigation!!!

...but NOT to the inquest.

And I´m afraid that Edmund Reid, who represented the police and who led the investigation, had already been informed about the characteristics of the wound as he sat and listened to Killeen. He had read the autopsy report, and he had spoken to Killeen and h thus knew much, much, much more than there was ever any need to inform the inquest about.

So you see, David, although I realize your sensing that there was an urgency that the police was informed about the details of the case as regards Tabrams wounds, Reid and the police ALREADY had that information on the afternoon of the 9th. And thus nothing was withheld from them by Killeens "colloquial" attitude and information. It instead ensured that the inquest got all the information THEY needed to reach their verdict.

Do you for one split second think that Killeen would not have specified what he had seen in the post-mortem report? Do you think that if he found a double-edged hole in the sternum, he would have thought "oh, what the hell ..." and omitted to mention it? Do you think that it is the scarce information offered at the inquest (Killeen spoke perhaps a hundred words there) that governs the actions of the police?

Well, do you?

As for your fight to prove that a dagger was never known as a double-edged weapon, I will simply direct you to the knowledgeable and full information I provided before and ask you to do the homework.

"Is that I dagger that I see before me?"

"I can´t tell, mr Macbeth - how does one tell?"

Poor Shakespeare ...

The best,
Fisherman

[Stephen Thomas]

Tabram was not a JTR victim.

If she had have been then Macnaghten would have said so.

[lynn cates]

Mac

Hello Stephen. O man! Great is thy faith! (heh-heh)

I agree with you that Tabram was no "JTR" victim--but for a very different reason.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hi Fish

Ah, NOW it has sunk in" Yes, the two edges was "a crucial point for the investigation"! That is so correct! There is nothing I would change in that wording! It WAS of PARAMOUNT importance to the investigation!!!

...but NOT to the inquest.

Fisherman

Aha. But then why are you telling us that 'bayonet' and 'dagger' meant 'two cutting edges' to Killeen's mind ?

As for "not to the inquest", well, that is also wrong. Two weapons could suggest two killers (and there comes to our minds the famous 'person or persons unknown'), and that wouldn't have been completely off-topic - just as the question of a right handed or left handed killer, which has also been raised by the same Killeen AT THE SAME INQUEST.

[niko]

Dagger.

Hi every one, I am enjoying this thread, this is an article I found on the inter-net about dagger's -

The word dagger refers to knives that have symetrical double edged blades and usually have symetrical handles.
The origin's of our English word are Celtic "dag" (a point) The dagger is probably the most recongnizable of all the edged weapon's, and though dagger's may have been at times used for hunting, suvival,and rescue, and they are more universally recongized as stabbing or thrusting weapon's, ceremonial object's, and less working tool's.

I would like to mention I bought my "cuchillo de caza" (hunting knife) as a hunting knife and not a "dagar" (dagger) and it has a symetrical double edged blade, I supose it could be called a dagger. I believe that one edged dagger's and one edged bayonet's exist.

Going back to Tabram's chest wound inflicted by a dagger, bayonet or large knife. Why did the killer assist this mortal blow ?
As in the article mentioned above about dagger's it states that dagger are ceremonial object's, so here comes my hipothesis -

Was Tabram's murder a ceremonial ritual, thus the mortal stab to the heart !! with a larger blade as it seem's to be discribed by Dr. Killeen who "practiced" the autopsy on Tabram. I don't know the rest of you but I for one see a sort of ritual connection on Tabram, the five canonical five and the Pinchin St torso.

Thirty - nine knife wound's seem to of have been asisted by someone in a frenzy or rage (uncontrolable) BUT to me the mortal stab to the heart was a cold, calculated blow, this gives me the thinking that there were more than one person involved in Tabram's murder, remember just a hipothesis all the best, agur.

niko

[lynn cates]

ritual

Hello Niko. Well, that is interesting.

Do you think the other 30+ wounds with a clasp knife were part of the ritual?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Dagger or Penknife



It has only just occurred to me, but what about this (or something similar) for the "dagger" and "pen-knife" combination allegedly used in the Tabram murder? (Before I get Joanna Lumley ringing me up to complain, I should like to point out that I accept that people other than Gurkhas can get hold of them!)

[Ben]

Tabram was not a JTR victim.

If she had have been then Macnaghten would have said so.

I wouldn't rely on that, Stephen.

Macnaghten was the only senior police official to exclude her. Anderson, Abberline, Reid and others thought differently.

All the best,
Ben

[DVV]

Hello Niko. Well, that is interesting.

Do you think the other 30+ wounds with a clasp knife were part of the ritual?


LC

Now we're looking for a folding masonic bayonet.