Blood spatter in the Tabram murder

[niko]

Hi Tom



that's not the only mistake he did. Cornwell, for once, is convincing on this. She knows forensic a bit, I believe. Of course, all sorts of knives can pierce all kinds of bones, let alone cartilage - and here we are talking of a knife that stabbed (in a frenzy, as they say) 38 stabbed without breaking.

Not a toy, then. Clearly Killeen was lost, completely so.

And contrary to what Killeen believed, an ordinary knife can even pierce a skull. Cornwell (sorry) says there are numerous examples. It's quite easy to check out.

Hi DVV, well I think Dr. Killeen was correct on saying that two knives were used on Tabram, because even I could tell the difference between a wound made by a dagger to the wound made by a penknife, or at leats I think I could, all the best, agur.

niko

[DVV]

Hi Niko, Killeen was as qualified to make this post-mortem as was my music teacher to conduct Mahler 5th with the Wiener Philarmoniker.

[niko]

Hi Niko, Killeen was as qualified to make this post-mortem as was my music teacher to conduct Mahler 5th with the Wiener Philarmoniker.

OK I undestand, but I still think that a large knife wound would be obvious. all the best, agur.

niko

[Wickerman]

Hi Niko, Killeen was as qualified to make this post-mortem as was my music teacher to conduct Mahler 5th with the Wiener Philarmoniker.

Interesting you should say that Dave, conducting an autopsy was not something he elected to do because there was nothing on tv that night. Killeen was a Surgeon.

Dr Timothy Killeen.
Licenciate of the Royal College of Surgeons, Ireland, 1885.
Licenciate of the Kings and Queens College of Physicians, Ireland, 1886.

From what I understand it is the Coroner of the district who orders an autopsy.
Why do you think an RCS, LKQCP is not qualified to do an autopsy?

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

OK I undestand, but I still think that a large knife wound would be obvious. all the best, agur.

niko

It was obvious Niko, blatently obvious, not only by the depth but because the 'dagger' pierced the breastbone the width & profile of the blade was measurable, hence he called it a "dagger", or fixed-blade weapon.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

...... In reality, no less than four weapons were used against Tabram – whatever she was hit upon the head with, hands for strangling, penknife, and dagger.

Tabram was a large-framed woman, if the killer succeeded in rendering her unconscious while standing (strangle?), then she might have hit her head as she fell to the floor. Killeen did not specify on what part of the head the effusion of blood was found, top, back, either side?

Alternately she could have hit her head against the wall as she fell.
Given her physical size it might be easier for her assailant to strangle her once he had her laid out, but how did he get her down on her back?

Either way there is no evidence for four men attacking her.

Regards, Jon S.

[Hunter]

I believe Tom was suggesting two men, four weapons; although only three are in the scenario.

... What we have here is one man strangling Tabram (which took about 2-3 minutes) while the other man rifled her pockets for money and stabbed her repeatedly with a penknife (taking about the same amount of time). Man #1 then pulled his “long, strong instrument” and stabbed her in the heart. This hypothesis makes far more sense...

[Wickerman]

Yes thankyou Cris.
The idea that one man would not carry two different knives is based on what?

Suspect John Foster, arrested on suspicion..
"A clasp knife was found on him, and in a bag were three razors, two knives, and a number of watchmakers' appliances."

Suspicious character in Bulls Head Public House..
"...the parcel the latter fell to the floor, revealing three knives of the kind usually used by butchers. The knives were examined, and found to measure, 20, 14 and 10 inches respectively,.."

Another suspicious character..
"..The man arrested at Holloway has been removed to the asylum at Bow. His friends give him an indifferent character. He has been missing from home for nearly two months, and it is known that he has been in the habit of carrying several large butchers' knives about him."

Odball characters carry more than one knife were known, therefore a murder where two weapons are evident are not a necessary indication of more than one assailant.

Regards, Jon S.

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

Yes thankyou Cris.
The idea that one man would not carry two different knives is based on what?

Absolutely, Jon.

I have mentioned before that Danilo Restivo (convicted of two murders, with mutilations) killed his first victim with multiple stab wounds using both a knife and a pair of scissors.

[RedBundy13]

Hey D, Ive got a question for you, if Martha Tabram wasnt the Ripper first victim who do believe was? And I know youve mentioned Smith before but as possibly being one but maybe not the first. Its just kinda hard for me to grasp that one because of the fact that she was able to give her testimony before she died, in which she blamed the youths.

[Ben]

With regard to the Tabram knife issue, my observations from the early pages of this thread still stand. However medically qualified he may have been, there is little reason to suppose that Kileen had any appreciable expertise in weaponry. A strong clasp-knife could easily have been responsible for all the wounds. Such a weapon need not have been wider in blade than an "ordinary knife", and yet it would certainly qualified as a "long, strong instrument" of the type that could pierce a breastbone. As I've previously outlined, it appears that the "bayonet" theory was later revised.

[Wickerman]

Ok hands up all those who have no experience in weaponary. Do we really need to waste time entertaining the idea that "stab" wounds made by these two distinct weapons could be in any way similar?

Military issue clasp-knife (19th century).


Military issue bayonet, 1888.


Not a chance...

Regards, Jon S.

[Ben]

Ok hands up all those who spend too much time on Google Images.

I'll repeat: the idea that a bayonet was responsible for the breast-bone wound was later revised, as is evident from the Home office annotation. And yes, one weapon could easily be responsible for all of the Tabram wounds.

Gagging for any excuse to go through all this again...

[Wickerman]

Actually Ben, no it was never revised. You are misinterpreting what was written.

Only one wound was described by Killeen as possibly the result of a dagger or bayonet.
The Home Office memo to which you are possibly referring describes "several wounds which appeared to be narrow, like what a bayonet might make" (paraphrase).
The memo is 'wrongly' referring to the wounds attributed to the pocket knife. The single "larger and deeper" wound was precisely that, "one" wound.

I already dealt with this back on post #21, you need a memory jogger?
:-)

Regards, Jon S.

[Ben]

Oh good, so you do want to go through all this again, Jon?

In which case, I guess I'll just have to copy and paste my previous response:

The HO annotation made the point that a bayonet was first suspected as having been one of the weapons, but the inference is that this initial suspicion was later rejected on the basis of bayonet wounds being “unmistakable”. This would leave them with the knife or dagger being responsible for all wounds, and the bayonet theory being merely a product of confusion. In no way does the HO missive support the two-weapon hypothesis. It is clear to me that the whole idea of a bayonet’s involvement in the crime stemmed from a prior knowledge that soldiery could have been responsible. This would have been discussed at the inquest, and when Kileen specified that a dagger might have been the offending implement for one of the wounds, a jury member probably asked him if a bayonet could also have done the trick.

The gist of the memo being that the "bayonet" theory had no validity, which is fortunate, because the the idea that only a bayonet-type instrument could have penetrated a sternum continues to be nonsense.