Blood spatter in the Tabram murder

[harry]

Dave,
If money had been found on Tabram,I would agree on her affording a lodging house. Th e killer may have searched in many places that to us might seem inconvenient,a nd perhaps the late morning killing of Nicholls and Chapman,might mean victims were hard to bump into.Just thoughts.

[Rubyretro]

If money had been found on Tabram,I would agree on her affording a lodging house.

The killer most probably took all her money, as he surely did in all the other cases.

[DVV]

Hi Jon

And, therefore, if the police had born any doubts they had the perfect right to call for a second opinion. To the best of our knowledge they did not, hence they saw no need to do so.
Regards, Jon S.

They saw no need to recall Killeen either in the following murders.

But that's not how it works. Why would they have called for a second opinion ? For a prostitute ? For one wound among 39 ? - and just because Killeen shyly said : "I think one of the wounds...etc etc" ?
They knew enough to figure how she was murdered, and after Nichols and Chapman cases, formed the opinion that she was an early victim of the same man - a man with one knife.
As for Killeen's bayonet, who cared ? It was just another hazardous suggestion.
Now tell me Jon : the experienced Phillips himself made unbelievable suggestions, so why not Killeen ?
You have to see the investigation as a whole, with various kinds of evidences, and forensic conclusions were at best fragile in 1888 - and clearly misleading at times.
Abberline chose to believe Phillips theory, and as a result made a fool of himself in 1903, notwithstanding his 84 recommendations.

[DVV]

Dave,
If money had been found on Tabram,I would agree on her affording a lodging house. Th e killer may have searched in many places that to us might seem inconvenient,a nd perhaps the late morning killing of Nicholls and Chapman,might mean victims were hard to bump into.Just thoughts.

Hi Harry, I think Ruby is correct about the money. Another problem is that all ripper victims (or possible victims) were known to be active prostitutes. The killer never bumped into a beggar nor into a 78 years old and retired prostitute.

[Malcolm X]

Hi Harry, I think Ruby is correct about the money. Another problem is that all ripper victims (or possible victims) were known to be active prostitutes. The killer never bumped into a beggar nor into a 78 years old and retired prostitute.

how do you know that, he might have done and thought, ``bloody hell, look at the state of you, even i'm not that desperate ``

Tabram aint that ugly..... believe me !

[DVV]

Tabram aint that ugly..... believe me !

I'm sure Pearly Poll was uglier. That the Corporal chose her, while the private went with Martha, has baffled armchair detectives for 123 years and 6 months.

[Wickerman]

Thankyou Chris, very interesting post.

On a minor point..

... Would a more seasoned physician, familiar with knife wounds have been more appropriate? Maybe... but who?

The physician conducting the post-mortem is not required to identify the weapon used (in this case a knife).
It is the physicians responsibility to describe the blade, be it a stout-back, single-blade dagger-type, or a 3.5" x 0.5" flat Penknife/Claps-knife type, or a double-sided "stiletto" dagger-type.

The physician will probe the wound to determine blade length. He may then remove the muscle to section the tissue in order to determine blade width & shape of point.
It is the responsibility of the police to find the blade most fitting the wound.

The physician needs no experience in weaponry, it is sufficient for him to describe the wound, not identify the tool which made it. He can make a suggestion, nothing more.

Regards, Jon S.

[harry]

Stride was said to have earned sixpence by other means.Nicholls,Chapman and Eddowes set out without money and had none when found.Robbery I would put low on the killer's motives,plus time seems to have been against searching for such in some of the crimes,The soldiers themselves,by that evening,would have been short of cash,so I do not believe Tabram would have expected any from them.Had it been friday and payday it might have been different.

[Hunter]

The physician conducting the post-mortem is not required to identify the weapon used (in this case a knife).
It is the physicians responsibility to describe the blade, be it a stout-back, single-blade dagger-type, or a 3.5" x 0.5" flat Penknife/Claps-knife type, or a double-sided "stiletto" dagger-type.

The physician will probe the wound to determine blade length. He may then remove the muscle to section the tissue in order to determine blade width & shape of point.
It is the responsibility of the police to find the blade most fitting the wound.

The physician needs no experience in weaponry, it is sufficient for him to describe the wound, not identify the tool which made it. He can make a suggestion, nothing more.

Yes, everything you stated is correct as far as the physician's post-mortem report is concerned. Its one of the greatest disadvantages in the study of this series that most of the actual post-mortem reports have not survived. The two that have, relating to the McKenzie case and the Pinchin Street torso case, are remarkable in the detail that George Bagster Phillips provides and the process he followed. Many students of the Whitechapel murders haven't even read them because they don't pertain to the 'canonicals'. But they still give tremendous insight into how the other post-mortems were probably conducted.

In both, Phillips refers to the weapon as an 'instrument' only and as you pointed out, only gave a description- pointed, sharp, thickness and length of blade...etc, in relation to the details of the wounds inflicted. The investigating detectives were charged with finding the specific 'instrument' to be named, fitting the characteristics provided by the surgeon conducting the autopsy and hopefully presenting it as evidence.

As we've seen, however, physicians did give opinions on the type of instrument in more general reports to the CO (Bond's reports to Anderson), at inquiries conducted by the coroner and at trials of suspects charged in a case. Also, as we saw with the knife found in Commercial Rd. following the Stride murder, they offered opinions on specific items produced as possible weapons.

So, some knowledge of weaponry by a physician would be considered an asset in many circumstances when the police evidence and the forensic evidence were finally considered together before a coroner or a magistrate.

[Wickerman]

Thankyou Chris.
Yes certainly, for instance a military surgeon would be able to narrow down a choice of weaponry, seeing wounds made by military weapons on a regular basis.
An experienced civilian surgeon would also be able to call on his long years of tending to knife wounds and offer an opinion where the wound was particularly distinct enough.

I think the suggestion had been made that a physician needed experience with weaponry to be able to identify the "instrument". Killeen was not identifying the "instrument", he was offering an example as to the types of blade to look for.

Best Wishes, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

......Robbery I would put low on the killer's motives,...

Agreed, these women carried nothing of value. There were plenty of street gangs who preyed on these women often enough for them to know that the best thing for them to do was spend what they earned as soon as they got it.

The soldiers themselves,by that evening,would have been short of cash,so I do not believe Tabram would have expected any from them.Had it been friday and payday it might have been different.

Did soldiers get paid on Friday's?
We do, because it is the end of our work-week, but there is no end to a soldiers work-week. When did they get paid?
I would assume if they were out on the town doing the pubs they had the money to do it with.

Regards, Jon S.

[harry]

Jon.
Friday,in my time was,and in my father's time which was pre first world war,and I'm sure in 1888.The traditional beginning and ending of a week in the forces was same days as observed elsewhere in UK.Tecknically a soldier was on duty at all times,but Saturday from noon,Sunday and public holidays,at discrection of OC,w ere relaxation periods.You could leave barracks.They may have had the money to start the day,but by the late hours I doubt there would be little left,as there would be little to start with.I.m sure Tabram's killing was not soldier related.

[Wickerman]

Jon.
Friday,in my time was,and in my father's time which was pre first world war,and I'm sure in 1888.

Thankyou Harry, good enough.

[DVV]

Hello Harry

I.m sure Tabram's killing was not soldier related.

Agreed, no bayonet, no soldier. One knife, one killer.

[Wickerman]

Now lets not go overboard Dave, "not soldier related" is quite sufficient.