Blood spatter in the Tabram murder

[Sally]

Miss Mary Ann

Pearly Poll was a reluctant witness, Dave. And that's putting it mildly. The first thing she appears to have done after Tabram was known to be dead is a runner, having apparently been consistently resident at the same lodging house for several months. Obviously she was trying to avoid being found. When she was tracked down, it looks as though she had no choice but to assist the police with her enquiries - not that she was particularly willing.

She also appears to have been a chronic alcoholic. So I'd take anything she said with a degree of caution, personally.

One of the elements of the Tabram murder which comes out in the official documents and the contemporary press is the attack on Tabram's 'private parts' The outrage evident in contemporary press reports demonstrates that this was a shocking case at the time, and out of the ordinary. When considering whether Tabram was a Ripper victim or not, I think you have to ask yourself how many killers with an interest in attacking the abdomen and genitals there are likely to have been operating in Whitechapel in August 1888.

[Cogidubnus]

That other Poll

Hi Sally

I note, and share, your views on Pearly Polls testimony...however, without it, you've not necessarily got much of a link at all to two soldiers both actively involved...just one, apparently waiting for another...

My understanding, without the benefit of the full evidence, was that only one small cut was recorded in her private parts (although, counting the wounds overall, it is possible for there to have been more but this is conjectural)...against that is the fact she was found legs akimbo and clothing disturbed in much the same way as subsequent victims...

For what it's worth (not a lot probably!) I think Martha may be an earlier (not first, but early!) ripper victim, before he got into his stride so to speak...

If he was relatively early in his career perhaps he didn't have an established MO yet, used a smaller knife, and resorted to the Big Boy to finish her off when the little'un didn't do the job...not forgetting Killeen reckoned she lived through most of the attack...

Poor woman...

Dave

[Sally]

Good points Dave. But I think that's the point - I think there's enough evidence to suggest that Pearly Poll was a difficult witness - so how much credence should we give her? The soldiers she identified in the police lineup had alibis - so we either believe those to be fake alibis, or we believe that Poll was mistaken - or just picked two out at random. The whole story of the two naughty soldiers may only contain a kernel of truth for all we know and be a total red herring with regard to Tabram's murder.

As for Killeen and the 'inflicted in life' business. If the sternum wound was the killing blow then by that logic the other 38 stabs were first. Either Tabram was in such a booze-addled stupor that she failed to wake up when her murderer started doing her in; or young Timothy was mistaken on that score.

Nobody heard a thing.

[DVV]

7 stabs in the lungs, 5 in the liver, 2 in the spleen, 6 in the stomach, 1 in the heart. Not to mention the private parts. Still alive and on top form according to Doctor K.

[Cogidubnus]

I recall alive but not top form...irony not necessarilly being my strong suit!

[Cogidubnus]

For the most part I agree

The whole story of the two naughty soldiers may only contain a kernel of truth for all we know and be a total red herring with regard to Tabram's murder.

Quite agree

Either Tabram was in such a booze-addled stupor that she failed to wake up when her murderer started doing her in; or young Timothy was mistaken on that score.

With a shorter blade being used it's quite possible she lived through most of it - some people have lived through the most horrific experiences - who knows if he had a hand over her mouth, or had even stunned her by banging her head on the concrete? I seem to recall bleeding from the tissue of the scalp being mentioned...

I don't regard doctors as infallible Sally...far from it...none of us are, but I see no cause to doubt their testimony without VERY good reason...evidential reason by preference...otherwise it surely niffs of cutting the evidence to fit the theory...which could lead one into being trapped by that theory and doomed to defend it for aye....

All the best
Dave

[DVV]

irony not necessarilly being my strong suit!

It's not the worst thing either. Time to point out how lost was the guy.

[Cogidubnus]

Time to point out how lost was the guy.

Who, and on what evidence please?

Thanks

Dave

[DVV]

Who, and on what evidence please?

Thanks

Dave

I've already posted about that stab in the heart, for example, believed to be the lethal and therefore final blow (according to Killeen) by some posters, but actually listed among the "other stabs" caused by the "ordinary knife" (still according to Killeen).

Does it answer your question, Sir ?

[Cogidubnus]

And I don't think that necessarily indicates he's lost...

[Sally]

With a shorter blade being used it's quite possible she lived through most of it - some people have lived through the most horrific experiences - who knows if he had a hand over her mouth, or had even stunned her by banging her head on the concrete? I seem to recall bleeding from the tissue of the scalp being mentioned...

Yes, she could have been stunned - although I do wonder if she'd just passed out on the stairs and her killer happened upon her - maybe he was thinking of dossing down there himself for the night - and took the chance. If you think Tabram was an early Ripper victim, then I suppose that might fit; his first concern appears to have been to silence his victims so that he could get on with his fun - maybe an unconscious Tabram had a certain appeal.

Either way, I think it likely she was unconscious, one way or the other, for nobody to have heard anything.

Anyway, I fear I'm wandering off topic, so...

[Sally]

Signposts..

I agree that his reported testimony in some press reports does sound as though he's ticking off boxes - the sort of thing a junior doctor with less experience might do - speculative admittedly, but when he mentions that some but not all of the wounds could have been self-inflicted... this smacks of a remembered lecture - 'How to tell wilful murder from self murder 101'.

[Cogidubnus]

Sally

"Anyway, I fear I'm wandering off topic, so..."

You and me both...and everyone else if you look at the first posting on the thread! Well and truly hijacked....

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

but when he mentions that some but not all of the wounds could have been self-inflicted... this smacks of a remembered lecture - 'How to tell wilful murder from self murder 101'.

Yes but how do we know this isn't a response to a daft question by the coroner, or one of the jury? Inquest records don't always make this clear, and it may well be press reports don't always either.

All the best
Dave

[DVV]

Call it as you like.
Nothing is clear in his testimony.
Even not the stab in the heart. "Sufficient to cause death". But listed among the other stabs. If that wound and that of the sternum were one and the same, as some believe, the less I can say is that Killeen has been extremely confused at the inquest. Barnett, with his famous speech impediment, was much more clear.

"Ce qui se pense bien s'énonce clairement..."