Jack as mutilator, not as murderer

[Defective Detective]

One idea with regards to Tabram's death I'd heard about before, and which was mentioned on one of the podcasts on the subject, is the possibility that Tabram's murderer and the man who eviscerated her were two different people. The idea, boiled down to its basics, is this: that Tabram was killed by an unknown assailant (presumably one of her soldier clientele) with a bayonet through the sternum, and that, as she lay dying or dead in the stairwell of George Yard Buildings, another bloody-minded individual - this being Jack in most iterations of the story - came along for a "practice run" on her cooling body. This, then, would account for the potential that two different knives were used on Mrs. Tabram as suggested by the coroner.

I'm not altogether familiar with Tabram's death, so I don't have the expertise necessary to judge this scenario. But while it strikes me as far-fetched and almost a little whimsical, it nevertheless strikes me as an idea that ought to be explored. Is there any evidence for or against this notion? Even ignoring the possibility of Jack's involvement entirely, is there any evidence that two different hands were involved in the wounds inflicted upon Martha Tabram?

[kensei]

Martha's body was not found lying in full view of passers by, but on a sheltered landing several feet above ground. This would tend to argue against Jack stumbling across her as he had no reason to go up those stairs, with the possible exception of your use of the words "dying or dead." She would have had to have been still alive and crying out for Jack to hear as he passed, but even then wouldn't she have been heard by the residents of the building?

Also, I'm afraid I have to take issue with your use of the word "eviscerated." Martha was stabbed repeatedly but this is not the same as "eviscerated," which my dictionary defines as removal of the entrails. (Neveretheless I do believe that it was Jack who killed Martha and that the level of violence in her killing was what led him on to delve into his true eviscerations soon to come.)

[DVV]

Hi DD

the simple truth is that one blade was used. Didn't Killeen make other mistakes ?

All the best
David

[kensei]

DVV,
I agree, I've always wondered whether the conclusion of two blades was in error because of just some fluke thing in the examination of the wounds, and that the forensic science of the day being not as developed as it is now can excuse Killeen for making a very human mistake. I think that even today mistakes are sometimes made in the examination of things like blood spatter, a blade striking the same spot twice, and soforth.

[DVV]

Yes Kensei, and of course your point about the spot where she was murdered is a most valid one.

Cheers

[RavenDarkendale]

Perhaps the same blade used for all wounds, just the one delivered with force and precision through the sternum, the rest in a flurry that caused them to be shallower, due to swift stabbing. The knife would be drawn back for another stab instanter on contact with the body, in other words. The killer would be just stabbing to be stabbing during this flurry, no deliberately chosen wounds just general areas of the body. If he hit his aim, fine, if he didn't he released his anger anyway. Just a thought.

[Garza]

Jack must have had a nose of a blooddhound to sniff out a dead body hidden in darkness up two flights of stairs of a residential building.

[RavenDarkendale]

Jack must have had a nose of a blooddhound to sniff out a dead body hidden in darkness up two flights of stairs of a residential building.

Well said. The idea he would look for a DEAD body to stab is ludicrous. If he wanted that why not just rob graves, like Ed Gein.

[Beowulf]

Well said. The idea he would look for a DEAD body to stab is ludicrous. If he wanted that why not just rob graves, like Ed Gein.

But Gein lived out in a quiet area, close to a graveyard. It's not like that for Jack in London, he'd be hard pressed to find graves to dig up and leave parts lying about all in quick time. He' have to carry a shovel too, 'dead' giveaway to the cops already tipped off after his first grave robbery

Gein did murder one woman, she was the very likeness of his mother, and provided the perfect costume for his wild dancing under the moon in the woods.

[Ginger]

I've long believed that killing was incidental to the Ripper. What actually motivated him was the desire to poke around inside dead women. Killing them was just a practical way to produce dead bodies, since he really wasn't likely to find them just lying about. With that in mind, I've got no problems with your theory, except that it's implausible that he'd just happen along and discover the murdered woman in such a secluded place, unless he had to climb those stairs to get to his home.

The bayonet wound in the sternum (if bayonet wound it was - mightn't it have been a regular knife that stuck in the bone and had to be levered out?) is unlikely to have killed Tabram. Perhaps only one knife was used after all. Suppose she were his first murder - he approaches her from the front, forces her back against the wall, his hand covering her mouth, and stabs her right in the centre of the chest, in the breastbone. Now, suppose further that Jack's a naive sort - he expects the murder to be like a scene from a penny dreadful, with Tabram giving a wide-eyed gasp then quietly succumbing when she's stabbed. It isn't like that at all. She's in pain, and terrified, and struggling, and he's looking her right in the face as he kills her. The other 38 wounds are inflicted in a frenzy, more or less, trying to get her to keep still, and stop struggling, and even to put her out of her misery and stop her suffering.

[Phil H]

Is Tabram the only victim where it is suggested that killer and "mutilator" were two separate individuals?

I find it hilarious to think of a serial killer in Whitechapel who cut women's throats being followed around by a separate necrophiliac who then mutilated the bodies....!

Phil H

[Sally]

Double Act perhaps Phil? It might explain why we have so many differing witness descriptions of 'suspicious men' with the victims

Ginger - Yes, I agree, it almost appears that killing was, if not incidental, then a means to an end.

[Phil H]

Do we have "so many differing witness descriptions of 'suspicious men' with the victims"?

Polly, Kelly - no descriptions.

Eddowes (Lawende's man)
Chapman (Mrs Long's man - seen from back)

Both could be the same man.

Stride - Schwartz BSM and PSM, but one seemed to have nothing to do with the assault.

So hardly a huge range to choose from and in only one (IMHO doubtful) case, two men at once.

Phil H

[Sally]

Do we have [B]"so many differing witness descriptions of 'suspicious men' with the victims"

A few, I think.

Polly, Kelly - no descriptions.

None for Polly, Kelly - Blotchy? Astrakhan Man? His existence is admittedly contraversial.

Eddowes (Lawende's man)
Chapman (Mrs Long's man - seen from back)

Both could be the same man.

Could be, yes.

Stride - Schwartz BSM and PSM, but one seemed to have nothing to do with the assault.

So hardly a huge range to choose from and in only one (IMHO doubtful) case, two men at once.

No, not a huge range, but differing witness descriptions, certainly. I don't think any clear picture of a suspect emerges from those descriptions.

[RavenDarkendale]

Two men working as a team in the JtR murders? I don't see it happening