Why NOT??

[Henry Flower]

Regarding the 'cut' : as my fiancé said to her ex, three inches is not very long. To my mind, a mere 3 inches is not enough to allow us to distinguish this as being more of a deliberate cut than a stab inflicted at a certain angle, or withdrawn obliquely.

However, if we take the stabs to the throat as a first step in an evolving M.O. it might be worth noting that the next victim, Nichols, had two wounds to her throat - one quite short; 4 inches according to Llewellyn. I think it is not implausible to picture the focus on the throat evolving from the repeated stabs in the Tabram case, to a hesitant gash followed by a definitive deep throat-cutting in the Nichols case, and on to the attempted decapitations that followed.

Regarding the solitary wound to Tabram's lower abdomen, the precise position may be important, but there is no absolute pattern to JTR's attacks in that area: Nichols had cuts to her 'lower abdomen', but they certainly don't seem to be genitally-focused: some ran horizontally across the abdomen, others went downwards on the right-hand side. Chapman, as far as I can remember, had no stabs reported to the genital area, but her abdomen was opened and her uterus removed. Stride, nothing. Eddowes not only had her abdomen opened and her uterus plundered, she also had several stab wounds to the external genitalia and perineum. But then, Eddowes' kidney was evidently as interesting to JTR as her uterus. MJK, on the other hand, had her external genitalia treated with absolute disregard. They were simply carved off with a huge flap of thigh and buttock, and dumped on the table. JTR evidently had much more interest in innards than he did in genitals, though I am still uncertain whether or not her heart was missing.

For what it's worth, I think that we do not know, cannot know, and never will know whether Tabram was a victim of JTR. But it's fun to speculate.

[tji]

Hello


Now Martha was a stout woman, and i would imagine her clothes were quite thick, so how do you puncture a liver FROM THE FRONT OF THE BODY?
I don`t know how significant this is, if i am right, but it could say something about the lenght of the knife or that part of the attack was from behind her.
Any thoughts?

That would be a change of M.O from Jtr, he never, I thought you were of the opinion Martha was a Jtr vic?

I think Grave Maurice is right, it is under the ribcage...see I did learn things at school.

I wonder though how he would have done it, from below and thrust up behind the ribcage of through the ribcage, surely that would indicate a lot of strength and rage to hit the liver 5 times?

Tj

[DVV]

Hi GM

I recommend Dr Giggles.

Amitiés
David

[The Grave Maurice]

This is taking me back to high school biology, but isn't the liver on the right side just under the ribcage? If so, it should be easy to puncture from the front, but I'm really not sure. Is there a doctor in the house?

[Jimi]

Just a thought

Hi All
I have been trying to keep up with this fascinating thread, which led me to re-read some of the accounts of Martha`s attack.
I don`t know whether i am mistaken or whether it has been mentioned before but in Dr. Kileen`s inquest report on Marthas injuries he states 5 puncture wounds to the liver.
Now Martha was a stout woman, and i would imagine her clothes were quite thick, so how do you puncture a liver FROM THE FRONT OF THE BODY?
I don`t know how significant this is, if i am right, but it could say something about the lenght of the knife or that part of the attack was from behind her.
Any thoughts?
Keep Well
Jimi

[Jon Guy]

A couple of posters have put forward the point that the no-one appears to have heard Martha's death, and therefore the killing must have been close to silent, thus coming down more in favour of it being a Ripper killing, rather than a soldier.
According to the papers, John Reeves, and his wife who lived on the top floor of George Yard Buildings had heard a considerable amount of noise that night from street fights and fracas and they were heartily sick of it by the time the noise died down.
The first fracas had been just before midnight, the second one just after and that one had been accompanied by terrible screaming and desperate pleas of ‘Help, Police.’
Then there was another disturbance just after one o clock; with more terrible screams, coming from the same neighbourhood. The Reeves had said that they looked across from the back balcony of the building to see where the noise was coming from and found that there was not one, but two separate fights going on, near one of the doss houses. There were quite a few crowds gathering around them to all accounts and running between the two to make sure they didn’t miss anything.
If that wasn’t enough at 2 o clock there were more screams and this time very piercing ones. The Reeves went out to have a look again and found it was just a some roughs moving towards George Yard. That died down in the end and the Reeves finally went to bed for the night. Nothing quite like a good night out in Whitechapel.

Please don't ask me which newspaper report that came from because I can't remember and I'll be up all night trying to find it. Lol.

Hi Jane

Just in case someone does ask ...it was in The Eastern Post & City Chronicle of 18th Aug 88.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/eastern_post/easternpost880818.html

[Monty]

No worries Abby.

Monty

[Abby Normal]

Abby,

If I was responding to you Id either address you or quote you.

I did neither.

It therefore was a comment solely about PC Barrett.

Cheers
Monty

OK-got, it thanks! I'm a bit slow on the up take. : )



But you're right. And imagine if he had followed up-he might have caught the soldier/JtR redhanded.

[Monty]

Abby,

If I was responding to you Id either address you or quote you.

I did neither.

It therefore was a comment solely about PC Barrett.

Cheers
Monty

[Abby Normal]

Nothing, to be honest I never said it did.

Monty

Hi Monty
OK. To whom (and why)were you responding to when you posted this? :

I must say, PC Barrett was a bit slow on the up take.

I thought you were responding to me directly to my immediate previous post
of this:

Hi Jane
As I stated earlier-why not the soldier being JtR, with a slightly different MO due to early experimenting/perfecting MO taking place? Why does it need to be either/or?

Or Were you just making a general remark?

[Monty]

Hi Monty
What does that have to do with my suggstion of perhaps said soldier and JtR were one in the same, and not either/or?

Nothing, to be honest I never said it did.

Monty

[Abby Normal]

If you were PC Barrett Abbey, and had just been told by a Soldier that his oppo was down George Yard with a woman, what would you suspect the two were doing down there?

Monty

Hi Monty
What does that have to do with my suggstion of perhaps said soldier and JtR were one in the same, and not either/or?

[harry]

As the soldiers were reputedly guardsmen,who were by selection ,more than average of stature,the overkill in the death of Tabram,seems unexpected of such a soldier,who , even in rage,could teach her a lesson in a much less severe manner.Her murder,in my opinion,indicates some form of mental illness on the part of her murderer,whose desire to kill,was there before he encountered Tabram that morning,and was not the result of a sudden impulse.Doesn't mean a guardsman can be eliminated on that score,but such a person,living dormitry style for months or years,would be hard put to hide such traits from comrades.
To me the significant part of Tabram's killing,is the nine stab wounds to the throat.I cannot imagine them to be a part of what is thought to be a frenzied attack on her body as a whole.A study of Tabram's corpse shows a heavy jowled person with a noticably double chin,which covers the throat,even when lying down.How then would a frenzied attack of nine stabs avoid the chin or jowl,and be so concentrated that not even a tear or rip to the neck would occur?.Pure luck some might say.
The answer to me,and of course it's only an opinion,is that the head was held by the killer,in such a manner that the throat was fully exposed.That there was no frenzy at that time,but clear and rational thinking.The kind of thinking that was later to be shown when cutting the throats of other victims.The kind of thinking that the ripper displayed.

[Monty]

Well that depends on the PC Hunter.

Monty

[Hunter]

Cops rarely bothered street prostitutes and their customers unless there was a disturbance and/or a complaint... despite the law.