John Bennett Photo discussion (moved thread)

[Ally]

Tom, excuse me, but you are directly questioning the honest research carried out by two of the most trusted and respected posters on this site; and you have no evidential or material information to support your allegations that what they have reported is false or misleading information.
But nonetheless you cast their findings and accuracy into genuine doubt, based only on your uninformed opinion.
At the very least, when I question something, my opinion is well informed.

The difference being, he didn't accuse John Bennett of hoaxing the photo in question. Are you still attempting to claim that it is only your disagreement on the location of the photo that has gotten you in trouble? And not your unsupported accusation of fraud?

Still attempting to lie about the situation AP?

[robhouse]

Moreover (and again, I apologize if this is another inane point), but what about this photo of the kid... is that the balcony railing behind his head? It is hard to tell from this photo but it seems likely that the stairs go down about 3 steps, then there is a landing just below where the kid is standing, then you turn and continue down... again toward the back of the building...

Clearly, this landing is indoors, no?

?

RH

[robhouse]

I apologize in advance if this is an idiotic point... I have not re-read the thread in question. But surely there must have been a landing indoors, right? Given the alternating directions of the stairs (toward the back balcony, then towards the front of the building) it seems only logical that there must have been landings both in the back (i.e outdoors) and in the front (i.e. indoors)....

?

But perhaps no one is debating this? I am a bit lost what actually is being debated to be honest.

RH

[The Grave Maurice]

I don't get this either. At least one of the witnesses said that people were in the habit of sleeping on the stairway. Why the heck would they sleep there if it were open to the elements? I'm confused.

[John Bennett]

The murder was outside the front door of the Hewitts, which does not necessarily mean it was outside their balcony. You would think at least one contemporary report would have held the information that Tabram was killed on an outside balcony.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I agree. I think people have been too quick to assume that Tabram's body was found outside on the balcony since this picture came to light. I think some report would have mentioned a balcony and we still do not know the real layout of George Yard Buildings' interior.

It's all still a bit of a grey area, in my opinion..

[Monty]

Keep yer head down AP....Im reloading.

Monty

[Cap'n Jack]

So Tom, you are disputing the fact that Martha Tabram was murdered on an outside balcony or landing, despite the fact that two highly respected posters on this site have provided documentary and visual evidence to show that she was?
And you have offered nothing to counter their well-researched evidence apart from your opinion?
I have several holes available, which one would you like to climb into?
Deepest would be best.

[Tom_Wescott]

You have me dead to rights, AP. John Bennett is Satan.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cap'n Jack]

Tom, excuse me, but you are directly questioning the honest research carried out by two of the most trusted and respected posters on this site; and you have no evidential or material information to support your allegations that what they have reported is false or misleading information.
But nonetheless you cast their findings and accuracy into genuine doubt, based only on your uninformed opinion.
At the very least, when I question something, my opinion is well informed.

[Tom_Wescott]

I have no problems with the image at all. I'm talking about where a body was found. Unless you mean to say that you think Stride's body was found two streets away from Dutfield's Yard. Show me one contemporary report, official or press, that says Tabram was found on a balcony or outdoor landing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cap'n Jack]

Okay, Tom, the balcony was inside, and it had a chimney which you could sweep from the sky.
And so I'm assuming that the objections you are raising against this image are exactly the same objections that I was raising against the other image?
Sort of caught you with pants down there in church.

[Tom_Wescott]

The murder was outside the front door of the Hewitts, which does not necessarily mean it was outside their balcony. You would think at least one contemporary report would have held the information that Tabram was killed on an outside balcony.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Monty]

Stephen,

I think AP is refering to this Eastern Post report of August 18 1888.



NUMBER OF FIGHTS TOOK PLACE

in Wentworth Street and George Street, which thoroughfares can be seen from George Yard Buildings. These streets contain a number of common lodging-houses, and are not far from a house which the woman "Pearly Poll" states that she and the deceased visited that night.

Both Mr. and Mrs. Reeves have pointed out the spot where they allege these disturbances commenced, which they state to be the dead wall of Leterworth Buildings, in George Street.

The first row commenced about 11:30, followed by another at 12:20 when both Mr. and Mrs. Reeves assert they heard cries of "Police!" "Help!" and terrible screaming.

Shortly after one o'clock in the morning they were again disturbed with terrible screams, apparently coming from the same neighbourhood. They went on to the balcony of their dwelling, and found that there was not only one, but two separate rows going on. That in George Street this time was not many doors from the house where the murdered woman and her companion, "Pearly Poll," sometimes lodged, whilst the row in Wentworth Street was not from a house in Angel Alley, which the woman "Pearly Poll" is said to have admitted that she visited that evening.

These two rows, Mr. and Mrs. Reeves say, were of a very noisy and quarrelsome character. The crowds round surged backwards and forwards a great deal. At last the police came and dispersed the crowd. This did not conclude the riotous proceedings of the night. About 2 o'clock Mr. and Mrs. Reeves heard more screams, they were this time very piercing. Only a few roughs seemed to constitute this crowd, which seemed to be moving in the direction of George Yard. However, the noise soon lessened in volume, and Mr. and Mrs. Reeves then retired for the night. "

It supports the photo.

Monty

[Stephen Thomas]

And not to forget that the Hewitts, when they gave their very important testimony to the inquest, described their observations as being made from an outside balcony or landing.

Hi AP

Could you please elaborate? And this ain't a trick question for your good self.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Because Tabram's body was discovered by John Reeves, as he descended the stairway; it is reasonably safe to assume that she was on an actual landing, as opposed to having been some distance along the first-floor ('second-floor' in North America) balcony.

But, which landing?

'First-Floor'; being an outdoor landing?

Or …

'Half-Floor'; being a sort of indoor/outdoor landing?

I would venture to guess the former; … because of the fact that Francis Hewitt described the body as having been twelve feet from his door.

I agree with that observation. Sounds reasonable.

All the best