John Bennett Photo discussion (moved thread)

[Hunter]

Sorry, don't follow that at all. The trouble is, as Colin pointed out, we can't tell from that photo what the sequence of steps is. For the upper stories, I'm inclining to his view of half-flights with intermediate landings at the front of the building, but I don't see how that would work on the lowest level because:
(1) the upper half of the front entrance would be obstructed and
(2) the foot of the stairs would be at the back of the building, rather than the front, which seems most natural.

Hi Chris,

I understand your point. If you walked into the right ground floor entrance, you would meet the half-floor landing. The right ground floor entrance shows a shadow that to me inplicates a lower level ( a basement?).

[Rob Clack]

This is Dunstan House in Stepney Green. The house is quite different from George Yard Buildings but I wonder if the stair case is similar layout to this one which goes up halfway between floors and then turns. From experience this type of layout does seem the norm to me.



And here is the Goads map of George Yard Buildings, the date is May 1890



My own opinion is that the murder spot was just at the top of the steps leading to the balcony. There might have been a flat area between the top step and the start of the balcony, say about two feet. Just a guess though.

Rob

[Chris]

If you follow the sequence of steps, begining on the ground floor and ascending on the right, there would have to be a half landing to connect the descending steps on the left which would not block the front entrance.

Sorry, don't follow that at all. The trouble is, as Colin pointed out, we can't tell from that photo what the sequence of steps is. For the upper stories, I'm inclining to his view of half-flights with intermediate landings at the front of the building, but I don't see how that would work on the lowest level because:
(1) the upper half of the front entrance would be obstructed and
(2) the foot of the stairs would be at the back of the building, rather than the front, which seems most natural.

[Hunter]

But wouldn't that imply a landing at the front of the building halfway between the ground floor and the first floor, obstructing the front entrance?

Hi Chris,
If you follow the sequence of steps, begining on the ground floor and ascending on the right, there would have to be a half landing to connect the descending steps on the left which would not block the front entrance.

[Monty]

Fascinating thread guys....my thanks to all who have contributed.

Even AP, in such a positive way too.

Monty

[Tom_Wescott]

Relax, Stephen, AP's not going anywhere. He knows he'll be blaring drunk by 10pm, which is why he picked that time.

And by the way, if you post something that requires removal, why would you expect to be 'consulted'?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Stephen Thomas]

As a post of mine has been deleted, without warning, or consultation, I shall be withdrawing my membership of this site at 10 pm GMT, and not returning.

Hi AP

(and I'm speaking as a big fan here)

Maybe you should apologise to Philip for calling him a crook before you go.

[Chris]

I am inclined to believe that the "first stage" of stairway ascension began just inside the color-shaded doorway (post-1888).

But wouldn't that imply a landing at the front of the building halfway between the ground floor and the first floor, obstructing the front entrance?

... I think that whatever the arrangement of the staircase the first stage would probably have been a single flight running from the front of the building up to the gallery at the back (though I'm still not quite sure about Rob's handrail).

Perceived Stairway-Ascension Sequence of Landings:

- 'Ground-Floor' Landing: Exterior - Outdoor*
--- 'Half-Floor' Landing: Interior of floor-plan, but not fully enclosed - Indoor/Outdoor

...


* This landing was obviously enclosed within the post-1888 ground-floor addition, which can be seen in the left-hand portion of John's photograph.

I am inclined to believe that the "first stage" of stairway ascension began just inside the color-shaded doorway (post-1888).

[Cap'n Jack]

As a post of mine has been deleted, without warning, or consultation, I shall be withdrawing my membership of this site at 10 pm GMT, and not returning.

[Chris]

An interesting observation, Chris! But, from this angle, we cannot be at all certain, as to the depth of the stairway (i.e. 'full-flight' depth vs. 'half-flight' depth). And either way; I simply cannot fathom the presence of any additional hallways in that particular edifice.

Yes, I agree that we can't tell whether the staircase ascends the full height in the full width of the building - with a passageway on the other side leading back to the gallery - or half the height in half the width, leaving an intermediate landing halfway between floors. Either way there would be some kind of internal landing/passageway where Tabram's body might have been found, as an alternative to the gallery.

But on reflection I think your suggestion is correct that access to the flats must have been via further passages behind the visible doorways from the galleries, similar to those shown in the plan of St George's House. I think there were twelve flats on each floor, not ten, weren't there?

And I think that whatever the arrangement of the staircase the first stage would probably have been a single flight running from the front of the building up to the gallery at the back (though I'm still not quite sure about Rob's handrail).

[Stephen Thomas]

Yes, there would have to have been, by necessity, an internal half landing at the internal front of George Yard Buildings unless the staircase was curved a la 29 Hanbury Street which I believe wasn't the case here. There are only two possibilities for stairwells in buildings of over two storeys, curved or with half landings. Staircases have to turn back on themselves dontcha know.

... I am not sure about the concrete galleries... I assume you are suggesting that the concrete may have had stone flags in it?

I am not suggesting anything, Rob! "Concrete Galleries" is written on the Goad Fire Insurance Survey.

It appears to me that with the left stairs going up and the right stairs going down, there would have to be an interior landing to connect them- each flight going in opposite directions.

I agree, Hunter!

Perceived Stairway-Ascension Sequence of Landings:

- 'Ground-Floor' Landing: Exterior - Outdoor*
--- 'Half-Floor' Landing: Interior of floor-plan, but not fully enclosed - Indoor/Outdoor

- 'First-Floor' Landing: Exterior - Outdoor
--- 'Half-Floor' Landing: Interior of floor-plan, but not fully enclosed - Indoor/Outdoor

- 'Second-Floor' Landing: Exterior - Outdoor
--- 'Half-Floor' Landing: Interior of floor-plan, but not fully enclosed - Indoor/Outdoor

- 'Third-Floor' Landing: Exterior – Outdoor

* This landing was obviously enclosed within the post-1888 ground-floor addition, which can be seen in the left-hand portion of John's photograph.

Again; …

I certainly do not presume to know that John's discovery depicts the only stairway, to have been found in George Yard Buildings; but I am very confident that it does!

As such, I am quite confident that Martha Tabram was found on one of the two highlighted landings, listed in the above sequence. And, because of Francis Hewitt's twelve-foot measurement; I would tend to believe that the 'first-floor' landing is the more probable of the two.

Judging from the pitch of the part of the staircase that's visible, it looks to me as though each left-hand flight of stairs went right up to the floor above - in which case there would simply have been a passageway on the right, not a half-flight of stairs.

An interesting observation, Chris! But, from this angle, we cannot be at all certain, as to the depth of the stairway (i.e. 'full-flight' depth vs. 'half-flight' depth). And either way; I simply cannot fathom the presence of any additional hallways in that particular edifice.

If anyone is envisaging an additional stairway, with connecting interior hallways running the length of the structure, on each of its four floors; or the visible stairway, having a 'full-flight' depth, with connecting interior hallways running the length of the structure, on each of its four floors; then please rationalize, if you can, what appears on the Goad Fire Insurance Survey, to be a set of two firewalls, separating George Yard Buildings into three distinct 'blocks'.

Once again; …

I do not presume to know that John's discovery depicts the only stairway, to have been found in George Yard Buildings, in 1888; but I am very confident that it does!

A remarkable discovery, John; … either way!

I'm going back to my political geography, demographics, and geo-spatial analysis.

[Chris]

I think I had been assuming that this black diagonal thing in the right 1st floor archway was a hand railing going down a set of stairs..

I see what you mean, but I'm inclined to think that may be something leaning against the railings in front. It seems to extend beyond the right-hand side of the archway leading to the stairs/passageway. No doubt it would be clearer on the original photo.

There also seems to be no corresponding handrail on the floor above. Obviously not so much of it would be visible, but I think some of it would.

[Hunter]

Hello Colin, Rob,

About the George Yard photo ( and maybe this should have its own thread at this point ). It appears to me that with the left stairs going up and the right stairs going down, there would have to be an interior landing to connect them- each flight going in opposite directions. I have recently completed a restoration of an old tenament complex in my home town that was layed out just that way with an exterior balcony on each floor to facilitate fire escapes.

This arrangement keeps the stairs from encroaching too far into the building.