John Bennett Photo discussion (moved thread)

[robhouse]

I assume by saying the "outdoor landing" you are referring to the actual balcony. Now I could be wrong but I am supposing that the balcony was made of wood. The Echo report of August 13 with Hewitt's remarks says that the blood was on stone... maybe there were stone flags on the balcony, I don't know:

"There have been many visitors to George-yard-buildings with the rather morbid purpose of seeing the place where the deceased was discovered. Here there is still a large surface of the stone flags crimson stained. It is at the spot where the blood oozed from the poor creatures heart."... "Mr. Hewitt produced a foot-rule, and measured the distance of his sleeping place from the stone step in question; it was exactly 12 ft."

I am wondering if the arched entrance to the stairs to the right (in the photo of the back of the building) went in for several feet before the steps started downward? This would provide a bit of additional shelter from the rain also... although obviously, the balcony above would also... maybe a bit drippy though.

The photo of the kid seems to bear this out, unless I am mistaken. But what is the deal with this photo with the little boy. I thought I remembered hearing that it turned out not to be George Yard buildings after all...?

RH

[robhouse]

"When I was called this morning, shortly before five o'clock, I saw the poor woman lying on the stone staircase, with blood flowing from a great wound over her heart." - Hewitt in MA, Aug 8

[Monty]

John,

The photo of the kid was not taken in George Yard.

I think, and I mean think, it was taken in St Georges next door. Im not certain as to that but am that its not the George Yard Buildings.

John or Rob Clack would be able to confirm the actual location.

And Im not disputing anything Rob.

Monty

[Chris]

Judging from the pitch of the part of the staircase that's visible, it looks to me as though each left-hand flight of stairs went right up to the floor above - in which case there would simply have been a passageway on the right, not a half-flight of stairs.

[Magpie]

Judging from the pitch of the part of the staircase that's visible, it looks to me as though each left-hand flight of stairs went right up to the floor above - in which case there would simply have been a passageway on the right, not a half-flight of stairs.

That's sort of what I got from it, too.

My great aunt used to live in a block of flats in Bethnal Green that was the simlar--you walked up a flight of stairs, the along a level landing to the next flight up. the outside and along the balcony until you reached her front door. Didn't put an elevator in unil the early '90's, neither.

Almost unheard of here, but very common in the UK.

[Cap'n Jack]

'Still attempting to lie about the situation AP?'

No, Ally, I'm simply saying that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Chris]

Also, while the chimneystacks at the back of the building are immediately adjacent to the stairwell, it looks as if those at the front are displaced away from it. Presumably to make room for the doors into the flats at the front?

[Septic Blue]

... I am supposing that the balcony was made of wood.

Goad Fire Insurance Survey*

"Concrete Galleries"

Also; George Yard Buildings would appear to have been just that: Three 'buildings', separated by two 'firewalls'. The only means of inter-access would appear to have been the 'galleries'.

* I don't know the date of the survey; but it pre-dates the 1894 OS, which depicts the ground-floor addition, seen on the left side of John's photograph.

[Ally]

No, Ally, I'm simply saying that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

No you aren't. You are STILL continuing to lie and trying to make it seem like the only reason you got into trouble was because you challenged the authenticity. If Tom accuses John of hoaxing the photo, then we are discussing the same sauce. Until then, you are trying to make a completely dissimilar situation appear to be the same to cover your own ass and continue to perpetuate the myth that you were merely questioning the accuracy and not what you actually did, which was accuse someone of a hoax.

Quit trying to pretend you were some innocent victim. You accused Phil of hoaxing the photo. Tom has done no such thing.

[John Bennett]

* I don't know the date of the survey; but it pre-dates the 1894 OS, which depicts the ground-floor addition, seen on the left side of John's photograph.

Colin, I believe this Goad map is from 1890.

[robhouse]

"Judging from the pitch of the part of the staircase that's visible, it looks to me as though each left-hand flight of stairs went right up to the floor above - in which case there would simply have been a passageway on the right, not a half-flight of stairs."

I think I had been assuming that this black diagonal thing in the right 1st floor archway was a hand railing going down a set of stairs..

Colin, I am not sure about the concrete galleries... I assume you are suggesting that the concrete may have had stone flags in it? In any case, Hewitt said "I saw the poor woman lying on the stone staircase." I am not sure what I think now.

RH

[Tom_Wescott]

Just for the record, I'm not challenging the Bennett photo at all. I'm sure it's exactly what John says it is. I'm merely challenging one of the suggestions that arose from it, that being that Tabram was killed on an outdoor landing. As John seems to agree with me, I have no idea what AP is going on about. Except that misery loves company, so he's trying to paint me with his own brush. What happened to being a lone gun, AP?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

Hello Colin, Rob,

About the George Yard photo ( and maybe this should have its own thread at this point ). It appears to me that with the left stairs going up and the right stairs going down, there would have to be an interior landing to connect them- each flight going in opposite directions. I have recently completed a restoration of an old tenament complex in my home town that was layed out just that way with an exterior balcony on each floor to facilitate fire escapes.

This arrangement keeps the stairs from encroaching too far into the building.

[Chris]

I think I had been assuming that this black diagonal thing in the right 1st floor archway was a hand railing going down a set of stairs..

I see what you mean, but I'm inclined to think that may be something leaning against the railings in front. It seems to extend beyond the right-hand side of the archway leading to the stairs/passageway. No doubt it would be clearer on the original photo.

There also seems to be no corresponding handrail on the floor above. Obviously not so much of it would be visible, but I think some of it would.

[Septic Blue]

... I am not sure about the concrete galleries... I assume you are suggesting that the concrete may have had stone flags in it?

I am not suggesting anything, Rob! "Concrete Galleries" is written on the Goad Fire Insurance Survey.

It appears to me that with the left stairs going up and the right stairs going down, there would have to be an interior landing to connect them- each flight going in opposite directions.

I agree, Hunter!

Perceived Stairway-Ascension Sequence of Landings:

- 'Ground-Floor' Landing: Exterior - Outdoor*
--- 'Half-Floor' Landing: Interior of floor-plan, but not fully enclosed - Indoor/Outdoor

- 'First-Floor' Landing: Exterior - Outdoor
--- 'Half-Floor' Landing: Interior of floor-plan, but not fully enclosed - Indoor/Outdoor

- 'Second-Floor' Landing: Exterior - Outdoor
--- 'Half-Floor' Landing: Interior of floor-plan, but not fully enclosed - Indoor/Outdoor

- 'Third-Floor' Landing: Exterior – Outdoor

* This landing was obviously enclosed within the post-1888 ground-floor addition, which can be seen in the left-hand portion of John's photograph.

Again; …

I certainly do not presume to know that John's discovery depicts the only stairway, to have been found in George Yard Buildings; but I am very confident that it does!

As such, I am quite confident that Martha Tabram was found on one of the two highlighted landings, listed in the above sequence. And, because of Francis Hewitt's twelve-foot measurement; I would tend to believe that the 'first-floor' landing is the more probable of the two.

Judging from the pitch of the part of the staircase that's visible, it looks to me as though each left-hand flight of stairs went right up to the floor above - in which case there would simply have been a passageway on the right, not a half-flight of stairs.

An interesting observation, Chris! But, from this angle, we cannot be at all certain, as to the depth of the stairway (i.e. 'full-flight' depth vs. 'half-flight' depth). And either way; I simply cannot fathom the presence of any additional hallways in that particular edifice.

If anyone is envisaging an additional stairway, with connecting interior hallways running the length of the structure, on each of its four floors; or the visible stairway, having a 'full-flight' depth, with connecting interior hallways running the length of the structure, on each of its four floors; then please rationalize, if you can, what appears on the Goad Fire Insurance Survey, to be a set of two firewalls, separating George Yard Buildings into three distinct 'blocks'.

Once again; …

I do not presume to know that John's discovery depicts the only stairway, to have been found in George Yard Buildings, in 1888; but I am very confident that it does!

A remarkable discovery, John; … either way!

I'm going back to my political geography, demographics, and geo-spatial analysis.