John Bennett Photo discussion (moved thread)

[John Bennett]

Another indication that Ramsay and the cute kid were in the wrong building.

I believe that Ramsay admitted a few years back that he took the landing photo in St George's House. That said, I've never seen the RAMSAY 1 pic Jake posted. You learn something new every day!

[Chris]

Yes, apologies, you are quite right and I was quite wrong. Well spotted. So how to get from the ground floor to the balcony above? A single flight of steps on the left is possible but I think unlikely. Perhaps there was a corridor on the ground floor which led straight forward to the back exit and also to the foot of a staircase on the right that led (back) up to a half landing at the front of the building.

At the moment I feel fairly convinced that what's suggested in Jake L's post is a workable solution. On each story a flight on the north side of the stairwell (i.e. the right-hand side viewed from the front of the building), goes most of the way up to the next floor, from the back of the building towards the front, leading to a half-landing. The flight is so steep that the half-landing is somewhere in the middle of the building, with WCs in front of it and (perhaps) rooms belonging to the adjacent flats in front of the WCs. From the half-landing a much less steep flight of stairs on the south side of the stairwell leads out to the gallery at the back.

[Stephen Thomas]

I still don't understand how you are getting from a half-landing at the back of the building via a flight of stairs to a gallery also at the back of the building. Wouldn't another flight of stairs from a half-landing at the back take you to the front of the building?

Hi Chris

Yes, apologies, you are quite right and I was quite wrong. Well spotted. So how to get from the ground floor to the balcony above? A single flight of steps on the left is possible but I think unlikely. Perhaps there was a corridor on the ground floor which led straight forward to the back exit and also to the foot of a staircase on the right that led (back) up to a half landing at the front of the building.

Hi Jake

Yes, this is an interesting discussion isn't it, prompted of course by John's super photo find. One little observation.....the iron railing on the outside balcony in the Ramsay photo is not the same as the one in John's. Another indication that Ramsay and the cute kid were in the wrong building.

[Chris]

To my mind, the staircase didn't go all through the building but was as crammed as the one in St George's buildings. Therefore the protruding part at the front was probably a part of an apartment. (The Wm. Stewart photo of the G.Yd front even shows flowerpots on the widowsill.)

I think you may have hit on the answer there. If the upper-floor front flats to the north of the entrance extended to include the space in front of the stairwell, that might explain why in the description Simon Wood posted it says that three of the flats had two rooms rather than one. It's difficult to see where these three extra rooms could fit otherwise.

And if the "half-landings" were in fact three-quarters or more of the way up to the next floor (as suggested in the Ramsay photographs), then the same pattern could be repeated on every floor, without the problem of a half-landing obstructing the rear doorway on the ground floor.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Jake L!

I have to say this; there seems to be a pretty little room to get away fast!

All the best
Jukka

[Jake L]

A most interesting thread - thanks all!

I still remain uncovinced about the murder having occurred on the gallery, as opposed to the staircase landing.

The description in Lloyd's news is rather clear, as it mentions the dark staircase.


Besides, having a single flight stairs would seem to be an odd departure from fairly standard structures..

To my mind, the staircase didn't go all through the building but was as crammed as the one in St George's buildings. Therefore the protruding part at the front was probably a part of an apartment. (The Wm. Stewart photo of the G.Yd front even shows flowerpots on the widowsill.)

Interestingly enough, two separate issues of IPN show the body laying at a spot that is very reminiscent - or a mirror image of - the upper Winston Ramsay pic - right down to the privy doors. (The lad would be standing at point "X" on the plan)


I know IPN is often less than accurate, but I reckon this time they did a little bit better.

/jake

[Hunter]

I think the interesting thing about the picture that Stephen posted is that there are windows on the street side of the stairwell, which are level with the windows of the flats, on every floor above ground level.

I think that makes the notion of half-landings between any of the floors difficult.

I agree. You add the water closets and it would have to be full landings, much like the neighboring building that Colin illustrated. How the first floor landing, where Tabram was found, is configured in relation to the steps in the photo is what is not conclusive.

The only scheme, at present, that I can come up with ( and I think this is what Stephen was suggesting) is a full flight of steps originating at the front on the right leading to a full landing on the first floor that wraps around that initial staircase with a level exit at the first floor balcony.

[DVV]

Hi Simon,

thanks for the articles, very interesting.
Now, where was the Hewitts door exactly? Where were the lieux d'aisance exactly?
....

Amitiés,
David

[Chris]

I think the interesting thing about the picture that Stephen posted is that there are windows on the street side of the stairwell, which are level with the windows of the flats, on every floor above ground level.

I think that makes the notion of half-landings between any of the floors difficult.

[Simon Wood]

Hi all,

Hope these help, from 1877 and 1891 respectively—





Regards,

Simon

[Chris]

Stephen

It occurs to me we may be using "back" and "front" in different senses. I am calling the street entrance the front and the other side with the galleries the back.

[Chris]

If there were a half-landing at the back of the building, wouldn't it be visible in the photo we're discussing?

No, it would be internal.

But the photo shows an open doorway at the back of the building, covering pretty much the full height between the floors, so if there were a landing halfway between the floors at the back we should be able to see it through that doorway.

And I still don't understand how you are getting from a half-landing at the back of the building via a flight of stairs to a gallery also at the back of the building. Wouldn't another flight of stairs from a half-landing at the back take you to the front of the building?

[Stephen Thomas]

[QUOTE=Chris;121181] If there were a half-landing at the back of the building, wouldn't it be visible in the photo we're discussing? QUOTE]

Hi Chris

No, it would be internal. Consider how you would get from one balcony to the one above. You would have to go up the left hand staircase which would lead to a half landing at the front of the building and then turn back on yourself and go up the next flight and arrive on the next landing on the right.

Here's a rarely seen pic of the place courtesy of Stewart Evans

The jutting out bit is the stairwell.

[Chris]

Yes, that's what I was saying. Stairs to half landing on the right, stairs from half landing to balcony on the left. Your graphic in post #61 shows the exit of the ground floor passage to the left of the foot of the staircase.

I find it a bit difficult to visualise what you're suggesting. If there were a half-landing at the back of the building, wouldn't it be visible in the photo we're discussing? And your second flight sounds as though it goes from a half-landing at the back to the gallery at the back. I can't see how that works.

[Stephen Thomas]

If the front entrance was such, wouldn't the 2nd set of steps at the half landing have to be on the left to emerge on the first balcony where they seem to appear?

Hi Hunter

Yes, that's what I was saying. Stairs to half landing on the right, stairs from half landing to balcony on the left. Your graphic in post #61 shows the exit of the ground floor passage to the left of the foot of the staircase.