Ripper Victim?

[Monty]

Dan,

Extreme throat cuts were actually pretty common.

Interesting comment that. I believed that also yet during the research for our current project, Jake pointed out that he found it hard to find stranger throat cut attacks for the period. It would seem that stabbing was more common.

Its something that is being looked into.

Monty

[johnnyerwin]

I don't much believe any of the "experts" in this field. Most of them don't know their @$$ from a hole in the ground.

Well, thankfully opinions are like @$$hol*s, everybody has one.

Cheers mate! No insult intended BTW, just using similar terminology.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Glenn.
My post was intended to be light hearted , but it did contain some valid points.
To simply dismiss any pattern to the whitechapel murders is non existant would be foolish, as the word coincidence would have to rear its head many times, and where does one draw the line with odds.?
Can we dismiss religious intentions?
Can we dismiss any relevance to a number that the killer relayed inportance to?
Can we dismiss without evidence that Paul Harrisons alleged encounter with a desendant of Barnett did not take place, and that clippings of actual newspaper[ original] reports were not produced showing Tabram -Mckenzie.?
The above selection may well seem incidental to you , but i look at every angle as you know , and I cannot dismiss intresting possibilities without a very good reason.
Regards Richard .

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Dan,

Seriously, I knew you were going to say all that and it's all very much what I would expect from you. So nothing new under the sun. You're right, I don't refer to experts, because I prefer to use my own common sense and experience when trying to read a crime scene instead of just quoting experts. This is the difference between the two of us.

Nor would I ever, ever, ever refer to myself as an expert. Nor do I try to 'prove' anything.
So the fact that you're trying to imply that I think I am is as insulting as anything else you say on these Boards.
But this is your usual appraoch - when you can't get people to agree with you, you lower yourself to character assasination. But unfortunately it doesn't make more sense of any of your theories.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Extreme throat cuts were actually pretty common.

Yes indeed, but not to the degree that the head is almost severed.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Ah, there's nothing like a good Tabram debate.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Nunners,

i look at every angle as you know , and I cannot dismiss intresting possibilities without a very good reason

Here's an interesting possibility for consideration: what if Dr Killeen had, in fact, mis-counted the number of wounds and there were actually 38 or 40 of them?

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I don't much believe any of the "experts" in this field. Most of them don't know their @$$ from a hole in the ground.

I second to that, Stan. At least to some degree.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Interesting comment that. I believed that also yet during the research for our current project, Jake pointed out that he found it hard to find stranger throat cut attacks for the period. It would seem that stabbing was more common.

Indeed, and the word 'stranger' is, I believe, the possible key here.
Wouldn't throat cutting have been more common in connection with domestic crimes (compared to today, at least)? At least I get that impression.

All the best

[Dan Norder]

Interesting comment that. I believed that also yet during the research for our current project, Jake pointed out that he found it hard to find stranger throat cut attacks for the period.

Stranger attacks in general are more rare, so if you specify stranger anything they're going to be more rare. I don't know about in London, but looking at murders around the world at the time I found quite a few with slashed throats and, despite what Glenn claims, that includes near decapitations. But then rare or not doesn't necessarily make it the focus of the murders as compared to just being a means to an ends.

You're right, I don't refer to experts, because I prefer to use my own common sense and experience when trying to read a crime scene instead of just quoting experts.

I think the experts have you beat on both common sense and experience. Hey, what is your experience on serial killers again? That's right, nothing.

This is the difference between the two of us.

At least I have the sense and experience to know what they experts say and weigh them. You appear to just invent things up out of thin air.

Nor would I ever, ever, ever refer to myself as an expert.

You just for years tried to call yourself a crime historian, and have often tried to argue based upon "what everyone in the field says" or "what every book on the subject says" until people demanded you back that up and you couldn't. Turns out you were either lying about all that or just assumed they must say whatever you believed. Looks like you finally admitted it now by saying you don't trust experts.

Nor do I try to 'prove' anything.

No, you just state it as if it were already a fact and attempt to belittle anyone who disagrees with you. Trying to prove something for a change would be a step up.

So the fact that you're trying to imply that I think I am is as insulting as anything else you say on these Boards.

Well, you know, if you feel insulted by my pointing out that you are wrong then you should make an effort to not say things that are wrong. If you insist upon stating things as if they were facts when anyone with actual background on the topic says otherwise, then that's your fault, not mine.

[Monty]

Dan,

Yes, all bout context.

Think the majority of stabbings were the result of brawls and disagreements. Mainly male and drink related.

Monty

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

At least I have the sense and experience to know what they experts say and weigh them. You appear to just invent things up out of thin air..

No, it's called using your own head and basing your reasoning on actually studying cases yourself instead of just quoting what others say about them. You should try it sometime.
And you don't 'weigh' what the experts say. You use it as a mantra. And of course, this hasn't kept you from regarding yourself as a hot shot criminologist, although all you do is cut and paste. The subject of serial murder is a complex area - the police knows it and even the experts themselves knows it.

That's right, I don't trust everything the experts say about everything.
And you know why? Because they are not always right. Plain and simple. Got any problem with that?
End of story.

[Fisherman]

Finally a Tabram thread!
I will pounce at the opportunity of digging in here, and doing so I will pick two small bits from the debate so far.

Chava: ”She fits the pattern for age, occupation, socio-economic group, description, location of body. Wound pattern and weapon not so much.”

Glenn: ”No doubt some wounds on Tabram would have been made after the ones who killed her (and that is of course logical when you stab someone 39 times), but as in most cases of multiple stabbing the stabs are a part of the act that is intended to KILL the victim and nothing else - they can't be categorized as post-mortem signature. Besides that there seems to have been no need for the killer of Tabram to do anything with the body after death.”

To begin with, Chava, we seem to be doing the same journey. I am becoming more and more inclined to count Tabram in, after having been a fervent denier. And as you write that she does not fit the weapon pattern, I will remind you of Phillips´words on the weapon that mutilated Chapman:
”It must have been a very sharp knife with a thin narrow blade, and must have been at least 6 in. to 8 in. in length, probably longer.”

Compare this to what Killeen spoke of; a blade that carried a resemblance to that of a pen-knife. This he would not have concluded from shallow depth of the wounds, since some of them penetraded liver and spleen, situated under substantial layers of fat on her substantial stomach. We must be speaking of several inches here, making Phillips´estimation of the Chapman blade one that tallies reasonably well with the Tabram knife.

No, the mentioning of a likeness to a pen knife would have come about as a result of the wound entrances displaying a markedly narrow blade – EXACTLY what Phillips sees in the one that cut out Chapmans uterus. And so, weapon is not a weak point here – it is a very strong one, I feel!

As for Glenns post, we are told by Killeen that all wounds were inflicted during life. I find it odd, given the places where the stabs ended up and the sheer number of them, but there we are. People are sometimes harder to kill than we believe.

The part that I am aiming for here is another one, though; the one stating that ”there seems to have been no need for the killer of Tabram to do anything with the body after death.” I think that this passage does not take into account two things of major importance:

First, if the killers only goal here was to convert his fury into stabs on her body, then why would he spend time lifting her clothes up, exposing the groin?
”A plump woman lay on her back; hands at her sides - tightly clenched; there was an absence of blood from her mouth; her legs were spread open; her clothes were disarranged, torn open at the front, and "turned up as far as the centre of the body", leaving the lower part of body exposed”, that was what Reeves and the PC accompanying him saw, and that points to interest areas totally different to those of merely killing.

To this we must of course add the stabbings to the groin, as mentioned here on the boards in the timeline of Tabrams death. This specific quote owes mainly to the efforts of Sugden and Begg:

”Dr Killeen conducted the post-mortem:
An effusion of blood between the scalp and bone; the brain was pale but healthy; at least 22 stab wounds to the trunk; 17 in the breast, including 5 stabs wounds to the left lung, 2 stabs to the right lung - albeit healthy, and the heart was stabbed once, which was rather fatty; except for stab wound nothing about the heart to cause death; some blood in the pericardium; the liver was healthy and stabbed 5 times; the spleen was healthy and stabbed twice; both kidneys were healthy; the stomach was healthy and stabbed 6 times; the intestines were healthy; the other organs were healthy; the lower portion of the body had one stab wound - 3" long and 1" deep, but was not mutilated; there was a lot of blood between her legs; nine stab wounds to the throat, yet it was not cut, and there was no evidence that the carotid arteries had been severed; the breasts, stomach, abdomen, and vagina seemed to have been the main areas; death was due to hemorrhage and loss of blood; sexual intercourse had not recently taken place; no evidence of a struggle; except for the wound on the chest bone, all injuries seem to have been inflicted by a right-handed person, using a penknife; the stab wound to the heart might have been made by a dagger or bayonet by a left-handed person.”

So, Killeen´s picture suggests to us that the areas targetted were the breasts, stomach, abdomen and vagina. He speaks not of a rage resulting in the stabs ending up just about anywhere, but of targetted interest areas that are in three out of four cases all closely related to the sexually oriented or reproductive areas of the female body. And I think that the stabs to the groin area, performed after having lifted the skirts, are PRECISELY the kind of wounds that can tell us that the killers agenda stretched beyond killing.

The best, Chava, Glenn!
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

So, Killeen´s picture suggests to us that the areas targetted were the breasts, stomach, abdomen and vagina.

It may be worth noting that, despite the large number of stab-wounds to Tabram's breast, stomach and abdomen, not one such stab wound was found in any of the "canonical" Ripper victims.

[johnnyerwin]

It may be worth noting that, despite the large number of stab-wounds to Tabram's breast, stomach and abdomen, not one such stab wound was found in any of the "canonical" Ripper victims.

Unless you consider the confusing issue of stab wounds to Mary Nichols genitals. There does appear to be some similarities in the murder weapon used in several of these cases too, including Tabram.