Ripper Victim?

[perrymason]

Yes, well, that's always been my question as well. Even though those soldiers might have been parading around in their dress uniforms, I think it's beyond unlikely that they would have taken their weapons out for a night on the town. I imagine such behaviour was prohibited for the obvious reason that a soldier getting into a drunken brawl and having his bayonet handy could cause a frightening amount of damage in a very short time.

I think the bayonet idea only came about after witness testimony had Tabram with a soldier earlier in the evening.

Hi Chava,

I think you need to understand what military service meant to the soldiers, its a ritual bonding of men essentially, and then consider why they might proudly wear large bladed weapons out in public when given that right. And they were.....thats the whole point. On Holidays it was expressly provided for. They could proudly display their service accolades and accoutrements.

So when we have a Dr commenting on a wound that was considerably larger than a pen-knife might make as possibly being made by a dagger, or perhaps "bayonet", its likely a good idea we consider that as crucial investigative evidence.

It means one person used 2 weapons for one kill....Jack doesnt do that, ....or that 2 people were involved in the murder, and Jack works alone. Then add just stabs and no cuts, soldiers being seen in pairs on the night in question, and the larger blade, and you have a very plausible potential for a soldier related murder.

Seems the Police thought so too. They still re-scheduled the soldier line-up when Pearly Poll left without a word to stay with family.

Best regards Chava.......btw.....I live in Thornhill now as of yesterday.....so no need for The Beach references anymore.

[Chava]

You're kidding! Thornhill! I used to live not far from there. You're a long way from the lake there...

Can someone point me to the reference that tells us that on Bank Holidays soldiers can carry their weapons? It sounds like a recipe for disaster, especially since there would be a ton of drinking done.

[perrymason]

You're kidding! Thornhill! I used to live not far from there. You're a long way from the lake there...

Can someone point me to the reference that tells us that on Bank Holidays soldiers can carry their weapons? It sounds like a recipe for disaster, especially since there would be a ton of drinking done.

Hi again Chava,

Ill see if I can find the source I discovered when cruising press coverage, you can always refer to Pat Cornwell, I believe she mentioned this in her "Case Closed"... My contention comes from an article written in the summer I believe, concerning bladed weapons and the events of the Spring.

If you consider that Civil War generals could be seen long after the cessation of aggression still wearing their swords in public, it might not seem so odd.

I think in this murder we cannot ignore that wearing of weaponry was permitted for active and veteran soldiers on Public Holidays, and that a suggestion of a weapon.. perhaps a "bayonet" was used to make a large wound in Martha came from the man performing the autopsy. That 2 soldiers were the last men seen in Martha's company, and that 1 of 2 soldiers is seen near the crime scene later that morning waiting for the other. That Martha was killed with 2 weapons, one substantial and not easy to carry concealed...pen-knives fold. That the physical evidence doesnt prohibit her being choked by one man while being repeatedly stabbed by another.

I know some posters like my friend David would like to consider a Killeen error in judgment when he suggests more likely that 2 weapons were used, but for me, its the core issue when looking at a Ripper assignation. 2 weapons in any form that takes, 1 man, 2 or 3 men,...1 man and a scavenger.....this murder cannot be seen as similar to Polly's, Annies or Kates. But it could be seen similar to a murder like Liz's.....there is a possibility that she is killed with a slightly different knife than the preceding Canonicals, and she might have been killed in anger like Martha was.

I know....half an hour from the water...bummer.....I lived on the water in Vancouver and loved it here too...its just economics at the moment, my past year has been less than wonderful...like lots of folks.

Cheers Chava

[Chava]

If you consider that Civil War generals could be seen long after the cessation of aggression still wearing their swords in public, it might not seem so odd.

There's a huge difference, Michael. The generals may have occasionally walked around in full fig, but that was in the States. The attitude towards carried weapons in the UK is much different to the States and always was. The UK is more like Canada in that regard. Which is one of the reasons why, when we left London, we came here rather than the US.

And I wouldn't believe much of Patsy's book. Her research is crap!

[DVV]

And I wouldn't believe much of Patsy's book. Her research is crap!

No doubt, Chava,

but we can grant her some forensic knowledge, and I think she made a valid point against Killeen's opinion that 2 weapons were used.

The "ordinary knife", imo, has been underestimated. It pierced several organs, including the heart (and this was sufficient to cause death, according to Killeen). So it wasn't a toy.

The expression "some sort of dagger" means simply, and clumsily, "a stronger knife".
But was a stronger knife needed ?

Fisherman thinks that Killeen has measured the wound, and that the hole in the chestbone turned out to have been caused by a bayonet.
It doesn't work. Because Killeen referred more to a "sort of dagger" than to a bayonet.
And a dagger hasn't a particular blade with a particular lenght, width, etc.

Reid was on "the trail of the soldiers" because of PC Barrett and Pearly Poll. He knew well that anybody could have a bayonet or "some sort of dagger".

Of course, soldiers are still good suspects in this case, but anybody else could have pierced Martha's chestbone.

Amitiés, Chava and Mike,
David

[Jon Guy]

Hello

At the inquest Pearly Poll confirmed her Corporal was not wearing sidearms, and a press report stated that the soldiers seen in the area that night were not carrying bayonets.

[DVV]

Hello

At the inquest Pearly Poll confirmed her Corporal was not wearing sidearms, and a press report stated that the soldiers seen in the area that night were not carrying bayonets.

Hi Jon,

and that shows that Reid were after the soldiers because of Barrett or P Poll - nothing to do with Killeen.

Amitiés, for sure,
David

[perrymason]

Hello

At the inquest Pearly Poll confirmed her Corporal was not wearing sidearms, and a press report stated that the soldiers seen in the area that night were not carrying bayonets.

Jon,... Since the first encounter is probably a few hours before she is murdered, what they were wearing is likely irrelevant. And a press report that says no soldiers in the area were wearing bayonets is without doubt, a guess. Unless you know that the source did in fact see every pair of soldiers that night in relevant times and locations. And every single soldier out that night...cause one man might well have had both on him.

Since I put a smirk on my comment regarding a source, its not like I endorsed it,....it has corroboration in reality, and I suppose arguing this without displaying that confirmation is pointless. But Im not sure I want to scramble through press to prove Im right on that point when its clear people will believe what they want to anyway.

David thinks folding knives can penetrate bone, thats his prerogative,...some think stabs are like cuts, thats their prerogative, and what the actual data says can often be set aside anyway, or filled with flights of fancy, like Marys journey back out into the rainy night when at home drunk and found undressed in bed.

So Ill skip the search if you dont mind, and settle for knowledge that is not shared or well known.

Best regards

[DVV]

David thinks folding knives can penetrate bone, thats his prerogative,...

Hi Mike

David doesn't know whether the knife was a folding one or not(!).

What we know is that the knife was strong enough to kill by one blow in the heart.
Apparently, it didn't break.
Almost 40 stabs.
And the attack was "frenzy" - some say.

Good strong little knife, folding or not.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[Jon Guy]

But Im not sure I want to scramble through press to prove Im right on that point when its clear people will believe what they want to anyway.

I totally understand

[Fisherman]

David writes:

"Fisherman thinks that Killeen has measured the wound, and that the hole in the chestbone turned out to have been caused by a bayonet.
It doesn't work. Because Killeen referred more to a "sort of dagger" than to a bayonet."

Ehrm, No, David. Not at all. To begin with, Fisherman does not even think it WAS a bayonet from the start. Fisherman thinks it was a dagger. And Fisherman will tell you that he means that regardless of whether it was a bayonet OR a dagger, if the stab was a reasonably clean one Killeen will have been able to assess the approximate - if not the exact - width of the blade.
...and that DOES work. Eminently, actually.

Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

and that shows that Reid were after the soldiers because of Barrett or P Poll - nothing to do with Killeen.

Hi David

Exactly!! Reid and Barrett went to the Tower later on the same day of the murder to look at the soldiers who had being detained in the Guardroom. They then returned the next day for a full line up of the soldiers.

[perrymason]

Hi Mike

David doesn't know whether the knife was a folding one or not(!).

What we know is that the knife was strong enough to kill by one blow in the heart.
Apparently, it didn't break.
Almost 40 stabs.
And the attack was "frenzy" - some say.

Good strong little knife, folding or not.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

Hi David,

I think the sticking point for you is that you are willing to incorporate a few types of knives that would not match a contemporary, common, pen-knife....just like the example in the press in late November I posted, which explicitly explains that the blades can be out, or in. Since switchblades havent made it to market in 1888, that leaves folding blades that fit in pockets,....

A "pen-knife" is a small folding pocket knife, originally used for cutting or sharpening a quill to make a pen nib. Modern penknives may have single or multiple blades and additional tools incorporated into the design......"

Folding pocket knives cannot....absolutely..be pushed through bone....and they also cannot....absolutely, make entry wounds of a dagger size.

We have 2 knives used. I cant see how disparaging the observations made by the man who was there is just or warranted.

Best regards my friend.

[Sam Flynn]

What about folding knives with a locking blade?

[Sam Flynn]

A sternum punctured with a paring-knife...

"Mr. Dufault later heard a scream come from his mother’s bedroom. He went inside and saw defendant standing over his mother, “swinging on her.” The defendant was growling, a sound that Mr. Default had never before heard from him [...] Mr. Dufault saw that defendant was holding a red paring knife that had been in the kitchen.

A police officer arrived and Mr. Default told defendant to tell the police officer what he did. Defendant said, “I tried to kill my grandma.” [...] Officer Call arrested defendant and brought him to the station, where he agreed to questioning. [...] Defendant stated that he went to the kitchen to get a soda, and instead got a knife with a red handle out of the drawer.

The medical examiner testified that the grandmother was stabbed six times: one penetrated the neck muscle, one went through the chest tissue and ribs and punctured a lung, one went through the breast bone and perforated the victim’s aorta [...] Death was caused by the stab wound to the chest."

(Source here.)

A paring-knife: