Ripper Victim?

[Malcolm X]

Hi again Ben,
sorry to insist, but I'd rather say I don't see any reason for Hutch to be Blotchy.
Even if there were many a blotchy face in the East End, blotches (together with a carrotty moustache) were the distinctive feature of the best Miller's Court suspect.
Well enough to bring Cox to Commercial St police station.

Amitiés,
David

i agree, i dont think the two are the same and not with S.COX lurking around as well, ( plus another eye witness that might come along a week later too) because if she or anyone else had identified HUTCH as Blotchy.............good grief.........HUTCH is then caught totally lieing and more importantly he was in there from 12.45 and then outside to 3am, the whole time frame is now covered by Hutch, because her lights were out earlier on, thus in bed on her own this definitely makes him the Ripper! ... please give this a lot of thought Ben, because HUTCH already looks as guilty as hell

he would not have come forward if he was BLOTCHY too, not a hope in hell, it's way too risky.

[DVV]

We're awfully off-thread, Malcolm,
and...the problem of Tabram's murderer is important, because this thread is about Tabram's murder!
So quickly: for the little we know, nothing at all can discount Hutch as a possible "Sailor Man". There was a good thread about this some months ago. It turned out that "appearance of a sailor" doesn't mean a sailor in uniform, far from it. That's just describing clumsily somebody vaguely reminiscent of a dock labourer or something like that. The sailor appearance, in fact, is nothing else than the cape and the scarf.

Amitiés,
David

[Malcolm X]

yes we're off topic ........... all of us, yes i agree about sailor man

ok, TABRAM wasn't killed by JTR, That's back on topic

time for bed, good night

[Shelley]

i agree, i dont think the two are the same and not with S.COX lurking around as well, ( plus another eye witness that might come along a week later too) because if she or anyone else had identified HUTCH as Blotchy.............good grief.........HUTCH is then caught totally lieing and more importantly he was in there from 12.45 and then outside to 3am, the whole time frame is now covered by Hutch, because her lights were out earlier on, thus in bed on her own this definitely makes him the Ripper! ... please give this a lot of thought Ben, because HUTCH already looks as guilty as hell

he would not have come forward if he was BLOTCHY too, not a hope in hell, it's way too risky.

Malcom X,

I like your style here. I refuse to disscuss anything with a nutcase like Ben, shell a peanut & he's still nuttier than that! Also complete dishonesty in the form of Chava. I found the casebook buddy ' The Ignore List '.
Carry on chaps, as you will.

[Shelley]

Hi Ben,

if Hutch looked like Blotchy, then Blotchy's description has to be completely inaccurate... and if so, how can we say that Hutch looked like Blotchy ??!!

I mean: could Hutch have lost his blotches within 3 days ?
Could Abberline be fool enough to have forgotten Blotchy's appearance within 3 days ?
Just remember Blotchy was the suspect # 1, before the world heard of Mr Astrakhan.
So no, Hutch can't be Blotchy. Neither Barnett, of course.

Amitiés,
David

I like this style too. Well done! Plain terms for the nut baskets..........Carry on chaps as you will erm, i will try and stay on topic from now on

[Shelley]

Hello Shelley,
My post was not reflecting on shocking the victims, not even shocking society, but perhaps shocking just one person Mary Kelly.
I am not suggesting that Paleys theory is spot on, but it would not surprise me in the slightest, if the murders ceased with the removal of Kelly, because after her death , no shock waves needed to continue.
Of course it might be just a case of a murderous lunatic roaming the streets of Whitechapel that autumn, and having a field day, but i would say it was proberly more sinister then that.
My opinion , i grant you.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,
Well it's theory, and there have been some worse ones than that, as to your explaination.

I still think it highly improbable all the same, too risky, as well as taking into consideration the mindset behind these killings. I think that Mary kelly wouldn't be the only one to be shocked with the whitechapel murders, yet again Tabrams killing also shocked and there is no doubt in my mind that from the canocial 3 and putting Stride aside, the MO & Signature are different in comparison. To me if it had been only shock value only a real butchers job with organs spilled out, hacked almost to pieces ( given time limit permitting) and left at the scene, that would have been far more gruesome and shocking, especially if you either leave a trail with some organ parts splattered against a nearby wall ( not taken as in a need & neccessity of a substantially mentally ill mind). However, you are indeed entitled to your opinion. Best Wishes Richard.

[Shelley]

Interesting to observe that those who discount Tabram as a Ripper victim belong to two distinct categories.

One focuses on the MO.

The other one tends to discount her on the basis of the "soldier suspect".

This is, for example, the case of Evans and Rumbelow.
Quoted from the excellent "JtR. Scotland Yard investigates", p 260:

"Doubt must exist that Tabram was a Ripper victim, the circumstances ostensibly indicating a solder client as her most likely killer."

They could add that the MO was different.
But they did not, knowing that a change in MO hardly proves anything.
Btw, to some extent, the MO was similar: the killer followed his prey to a secluded spot.

Amitiés,
David

Sorry to burst your bubble here, but i'm one poster that says there is differences in MO & Signature to that of Tabram & the canocial 4.

[Crystal]

i totally understand what you're saying, no worries about that, i mean he was cold and efficient about the act of killing only, but maybe more controlled and efficient..whichever....but not 5 mins later, he went crazy after that, but still very much aware of his environment; otherwie he wouldn't have escaped Mitre square.

now was TABRAM killed by JTR?........does it matter, because the important one is who killed Eddowes, because if Lawende was right, this weakens HUTCH and BLOTCHY........but only slightly.

moustache and hair .............fair
build..................................medium
appearence of a sailor

this aint HUTCH is it, not unless he changed his appearence and Lawende got his build wrong!

Unless, of course, Hutch was a sailor..

[Jon Guy]

Hello

Detectives working on the Yorkshire Ripper case noted that when they approached a crime scene they knew it was the Ripper before they saw the injuries in detail, by the way the clothes had been disarranged. Sutcliffe varied the use of knife, hammer and screwdriver, but the body was nearly always found with the bra pushed up, and lower part exposed.

For all the knife attacks and assaults in Whitechapel they didn`t start finding prostitutes on their backs with their skirts raised up to the abdomen until Tabram, then another three weeks later,then a week later...

[Chava]

Hello

Detectives working on the Yorkshire Ripper case noted that when they approached a crime scene they knew it was the Ripper before they saw the injuries in detail, by the way the clothes had been disarranged. Sutcliffe varied the use of knife, hammer and screwdriver, but the body was nearly always found with the bra pushed up, and lower part exposed.

For all the knife attacks and assaults in Whitechapel they didn`t start finding prostitutes on their backs with their skirts raised up to the abdomen until Tabram, then another three weeks later,then a week later...

And that...is an excellent point!

[Shelley]

Jon Guy

Detectives working on the Yorkshire Ripper case noted that when they approached a crime scene they knew it was the Ripper before they saw the injuries in detail, by the way the clothes had been disarranged.

So they said, and they were only looking at one killer in the area too regarding the Yorkshire Ripper.

Tabram was killed in a building the same as Mary Kelly, but Nicholls, Chapman, Eddowes & Stride were all found in secluded open places, be it yard, square or row. The only one closer to home in an open place was Chapman.

[perrymason]

If there was only one killer loose in London in the Fall of 1888 we would have reason to conclude that the changes seen in MO from Martha to Annie for example were just iterations of the same lone killer.

That is not the case here.

The Whitechapel Murders started that Spring...and continue until the Fall of the following year at least. There are some 11-13 unsolved knife attacks and murders during that period, 2 Torsos discovered, and investigative opinion that suggests only 5 were linked to one man.

There is no need to modify any killers MO to address that fact. There were multiple killers....and the man that killed Alice McKenzie....an almost mirror match for some crimes the previous year...shows us that at least one other man killed like Jack did, perhaps a copycat.

Since Martha is so unlike the 3 Canonicals that were subdued and mutilated in the same fashion.....I think it would be wiser to look for another stabbing murder to hang on someone else....not to conclude that The Ripper didnt rip.

Best regards all.

[Shelley]

perrymason: If there was only one killer loose in London in the Fall of 1888 we would have reason to conclude that the changes seen in MO from Martha to Annie for example were just iterations of the same lone killer.

That is not the case here.

The Whitechapel Murders started that Spring...and continue until the Fall of the following year at least. There are some 11-13 unsolved knife attacks and murders during that period, 2 Torsos discovered, and investigative opinion that suggests only 5 were linked to one man.

There is no need to modify any killers MO to address that fact. There were multiple killers....and the man that killed Alice McKenzie....an almost mirror match for some crimes the previous year...shows us that at least one other man killed like Jack did, perhaps a copycat.

Since Martha is so unlike the 3 Canonicals that were subdued and mutilated in the same fashion.....I think it would be wiser to look for another stabbing murder to hang on someone else....not to conclude that The Ripper didnt rip.

This is a good point Perrymason, however there are around 18 victims all in all when i read up on it, such a while ago. They did pick out 5 victims that were attributed to JTR, at the time the police did not consider Tabram or Smith to be JTR victims, the Victorian police put Tabram down to a Soldier and Smith down to a whitechapel gang in the area.

However Tabram is different from 4 of the canocials. Indeed others have thought that Alice McKenzie was victim to a copycat, it's possible.

[Chava]

Hi Michael,

Shocking weather, innit?

There was a huge amount of violence against women going on that year and the year or two after. It's certainly possible that Tabram was the victim of a one-off rage killing. However Jon Guy's point is well-made. Why were the skirts raised in that fashion, and the legs laid out in that fashion? The real problem with Tabram is that she's un-rule-out-able! We can all argue back and forth about whether she's a Ripper victim or not, and many of us hold entrenched positions about that. But ultimately she is one of the fringe killings that might or might not mean anything. By my own 'alleyways and broader spaces' theory, she's not a Ripper victim. That landing would have been way too narrow. By the nature of the wounds and the weapon used, she's not a Ripper victim. But by the physicalities, age, social status, occupation and general appearance of the victim, she could be. By the time of death, she could be. By the position of the body after death, she could be.

Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice on this one!

[perrymason]

Hi Shelley, Chava,

The other victims did not show evidence of struggle that concluded with their legs and clothes being in the manner they were found,...the killer deliberately did that to mutilate victims..in Marys case, he moved her to the middle of the bed as well. Martha did show evidence of a struggle in her demeanor and final position...which could well have been caused by the struggle itself.

The number of victims one can potentially link to the Ripper in my opinion should be London Unfortunates, and within a short time frame historically....in this case maybe 2 years...so the actual potential victim count should be around 11-13 depending on your own preferences.

Even if Martha didnt have 2 distinct wounds, she'd still be a cautionary inclusion at best....and one that may skew the data towards a killer with broader kill styles.....and I dont believe that 60% of the Canonical deaths show that he was "broad". They are consistent and virtually identical in almost every key aspect.

Best regards ladies.