Ripper Victim?

[Sam Flynn]

Keeling isolates 21 stabs in the major organs which leaves 18 stabs unaccounted for, although I believe there were 2 stabs in the pubic area.

It's only stated that ONE wound was inflicted on the "lower body", Chava. That's one of the few clear statements we have in respect of this case.

Is there anywhere beyond what we have already that lists the positioning of the wound pattern? Because it seems to me that some of those wounds must have overlapped.

Not necessarily. Note that, apart from the neck wounds, Killeen only enumerates those stabs which punctured bone and/or subcutaneous organs. The remaining stabs could easily have been distributed over the chest or upper abdomen, without going on to puncture heart, lungs, liver, stomach, spleen.

[perrymason]

Note that, apart from the neck wounds, Killeen only enumerates those stabs which punctured bone and/or subcutaneous organs. The remaining stabs could easily have been distributed over the chest or upper abdomen, without going on to puncture heart, lungs, liver, stomach, spleen.

Sam,

Good point you make there. It shows us a few possible things, including one possibility that the man who stabbed Martha wasnt sure where to stab to hit organs,... that its possible he knew how to hit organs but in the heat of the moment...like in a "frenzy"...he misses occasionally...is it written down anywhere how many of the individual stabs would have been fatal on their own if the victim was just left to die? Other than the breastbone dagger or bayonet wound.

No matter how much knife skill and anatomical knowledge you bestow upon your favored suspect type for a "Jack", I think youd agree that the man that stabbed her 38 times with one weapon and once with another...or two men...whatever, there is no clear indication that he had either skill. He hits organs, he misses organs,...its either a lack of knowledge and/or hand eye co-ordination, or panic..or anger...or all the above.

Pollys killer took on a challenge that no man without the ability to pull it off would even try, no matter how insane...unless he wanted capture..and we dont have evidence that suggests Jack wanted to be stopped. I think you can only be confident of something you know well...and a practiced few moves is all the killer needs. He uses the same ones it appears 3 times...maybe in a row.

I dont think we need to look for infantile actions like a stabbing frenzy as something that would naturally and without influence in the form of further practice, transform him to that kind of confident killer.

The coroner for Pollys Inquest...likely knowing Marthas details as well, suggested that Polly and Annie were by one man, and the move from the front of buildings to the rear of them suggested he needed additional time and privacy to complete what he desired...based on his results with Annie of course.

Thats simple and sounds reasonable to me.

I know your basically on this side of the fence anyway, but I like to make sure I can ease you fully over whenever possible.

Cheers Gareth...all the best.

[CLK]

Did an account not separate the wounds to 9 in the throat,16 in the breasts and 13 to the belly? Then all stab wounds are accounted for(including cut).

[Chava]

39 separate and distinct stab wounds in the upper body? He doesn't overlap once? He's stabbing a prone woman wearing dark clothing who is lying on a dark landing in a dark stairwell in the middle of the night and every one of those stab wounds is distinct and measurable? More than that, he rips her bodice away from her skirt. Does he do so in order to stab her more accurately?

That, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, does not suggest a 'frenzied' attack to me.

[harry]

I fully agree Chava.In addition,The whole situation,the approach,the killing itself,and then the departure,w ithout attracting the slightest attention.Nothing speaks of any frenzied activity,on the part of the killer,at any time.

[Sam Flynn]

39 separate and distinct stab wounds in the upper body? He doesn't overlap once?

The upper surface of my thorax is some 18" across, and the distance from my clavicle to the xiphoid process of my sternum some 10". that's a rough "target area" of 180 square inches. My stomach - alas - presents an even bigger target. Combined, we're looking at an area of nearly 400 square inches. But that's me. In the case of roly-poly Tabram, we're still easily looking at well over 250 square inches to aim at, I'd have thought.

Assuming a weapon of 2" width and ¼ inch thickness, a stab wound would occupy only 0.5 square inches. You can fit a lot of those into a 250+ square-inch target and not overlap at all. Let's face it, we've only got to squeeze in another 8 or so unaccounted-for stabs, so there's plenty of room to spare.

PS: We're not actually told that there weren't any overlapping wounds, by the way.

[perrymason]

....and even though Chava's supposition is a good one, they didnt say that there were any overlaps either.

I think the point is valid...we cant be sure of things that are not mentioned but we believe should have been...anymore than we can be sure things that were mentioned should have been. Was there enough evidence for him to suggest a single larger wound made by a different weapon....or do we have overlap potential with that wound?

Since they did not specify overlapping punctures, Im satisfied with the arm changing angles and altitudes almost every thrust...like a frenzied stabber would do...and a single larger weapon used to end this event definitively.

Best regards all

[harry]

Case of Rex v James Williams.
Dr R.H.Davidson,D.M.D. for Kingston.
Autopsy Report.
The front of his shirt was saturated with blood,there was a tear in the front of the shirt about 2 inches long.I found an incised wound one inch long just below the fifth rib,dividing the cartiledge and going through the lower portion of the breast bone.On removing the breast bone there was a mass of clotted blood.The wound had passed through the right border of the heart,and through the diaphragm into the upper border of the liver,and extending about a quarter of an inch into the left lobe of the liver.Death was due to hemorrhage,the result of a stab wound passing through the right border of the heart,A large size penknife would cause the wound if used with some force.The blade must have been at least two to two and a half inches long,which was about the depth of the wound.
The accused described the knife as a small clasp knife which he used to cut tobacco.
The case of Finn Neilson.Doctor's report.
The manner in which the witness described the inflicting of the wound,and the spurting of the blood was consistent with the injury I saw.The wound would have made him unconcious in less than twenty seconds.The wound had entered the right ventricle of the heart.It was three quarters of an inch deep.He had an incised wound three quarters of an inch long between fifth and sixth ribs.The heart is near the surface at that point.It is a vital spot.If a knife went in up to the hilt,I would expect to see signs of abraision around the wound.
Out of five random stabbings to the heart that I have read,four were made with a penknife.One was by a woman.One was to a woman.Two were through the breast bone.None of the killings were described as frenzied.Two cases were multiple stabbings.All killers were caught.Two were convicted of murder,one of manslaughter,and two were freed.I have another 3500 pages of stab murders to peruse,from the source I use.I'll give a full run down in about five years from now.

[Chava]

Gareth, once more you are presenting some ignorance of a woman's body. The width of your torso--and the size of your enbonpoint!--have no relevance here. Martha, being a woman, would have much narrower shoulders and a narrower torso. Women are broader in the hip. She may well have been tubby, but that tubbiness would not give her a broader torso in lateral terms unless she weighed well over 200 lb. Martha was said to be overweight, but in Victorian terms. When people were much smaller and skinnier than they are now. I'm certain she was no sylph, but looking at her photograph, I doubt she was more than a current dress size 14/16.

[Nothing to see]

Wow, this has gone to 165 pages? Shows how long it's been since I posted on here. Jack killed by throttling then slashing the throat. Then he got his jollies. He also didn't get blood all over himself. He used one weapon.

He didn't stab - yes, stab, not slash, one woman in the abdomen multiple times then change his weapon.

Tabram is not one of Jack's. JMO.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

To be fair, Jack could've killed Tabram either in a frenzy (though apparently by recent arguments being made that seems an unlikely case) or just to see if he could in fact kill a person before doing his actual thing. For me, the thing that I find unlikely is the quickness of the change in m.o. from Tabram to Nichols, and mostly due to how he killed. I'd have thought that to slash someone's throat so severe as to cut down to the vertebrae would've required at least a bit of practise, yet he doesn't do any of that with Tabram. 'Course it's not impossible for Jack to have thought up a better modus operandi between the 7th and 31st, but Tabram's murder seems exactly what it highly probably and almost certainly was; a one-off and individual incident committed by someone other than the Ripper.

[Ben]

For me, the thing that I find unlikely is the quickness of the change in m.o. from Tabram to Nichols, and mostly due to how he killed.

I don't find that at all problematic, M&P.

The Zodiac was very consistent indeed in the majority of his murders, and yet he was proved perfectly capable of surrendering the gun and taking up the knife for the Lake Berryessa murder, and that was over a similar time frame to Tabram and Nichols. I wouldn't agree either that it required practice to cut a throat all the way down to the vertebrae, although ironically the notion of pracitce giving way to improvement makes the most sense if Jack had already made a few botched jobs on throats before Nichols, as I believe he did.

All the best,
Ben

[Nothing to see]

To be fair, Jack could've killed Tabram either in a frenzy (though apparently by recent arguments being made that seems an unlikely case) or just to see if he could in fact kill a person before doing his actual thing. For me, the thing that I find unlikely is the quickness of the change in m.o. from Tabram to Nichols, and mostly due to how he killed. I'd have thought that to slash someone's throat so severe as to cut down to the vertebrae would've required at least a bit of practise, yet he doesn't do any of that with Tabram. 'Course it's not impossible for Jack to have thought up a better modus operandi between the 7th and 31st, but Tabram's murder seems exactly what it highly probably and almost certainly was; a one-off and individual incident committed by someone other than the Ripper.

Agreed. I've posted many times before, I understand people looking for Jack practise runs. Why not practise on animals? Just a thought.

[perrymason]

Those are some good examples Harry of support for your position, but again I respectfully suggest that its folly to try and match this particular killer by types shown in other serial murderer captivity interviews.

This killer was advantaged by the primitive means available with which they could catch and try him for one. He might have left evidence all over the site but they couldnt see it or test it back then. He also is famous for "Rippings"....not stabbings. No-one would choose a nickname of "Ripper" for Marthas murder alone.

I believe the man who killed 3 women by almost decapitating them, that were mutilated in their pubic area and had organs of reproduction taken was the real "Event" killer...that one that caused peripheral murders to be scrutinized subjectively...based on them suspecting a serial killer they could not predict actions for was running rampant and might do anything...he might stab, or cut only once.

3 possibly consecutive victims with almost every feature of their deaths very similar to the others, repetitive, methodical and with increased activity each successive attempt..is in my humble opinion, the only "series" that we can with any credibility link to a single killer.

And in that context, Martha pretty clearly doesnt fit.

Best regards Harry, all.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

I wouldn't agree either that it required practice to cut a throat all the way down to the vertebrae, although ironically the notion of pracitce giving way to improvement makes the most sense if Jack had already made a few botched jobs on throats before Nichols, as I believe he did.

You're slowly convincing me Ben , though only with regards to perhaps one or two of the earlier unsolved 'murders' being part of the Ripper's build-up (I'm not sure of the correct term for it), especially Ada Wilson (despite surviving). You got me rethinking her assault a lot lately and I'm a bit dubious of robbery being the perpetrator's motive and her being stabbed in the throat as a spur-of-the-moment thing as I initially thought. It's a shame Ada couldn't elaborate further on what actually happened, as reading the 'summary' of events, it does seem as though her assailant had some intent on doing her damage and used robbery as a 'cover'. Even his simply carrying a knife indicates at least intent of him doing something with it, whether or not he actually intended to use the blade to harm her or threaten her with.

As for Tabram herself, I'm still 90% convinced she was murdered by someone other than Jack. If she was one of his victims, I can't see her having been killed for satisfaction, as I'd have expected at least a hint of foreplay with her innards. Then again, maybe killing Tabram made Jack rethink where his actual interests lay.

Why not practise on animals? Just a thought.

I've been thinking the same, specifically along the lines of horse slaughterers (but I'm not sure whether or not they cut their throats in order to kill them). I'm not sure where that notion came from but I think, and don't hold me to it, that it's from one of the [hoax] Ripper letters. But it'd make perfect sense if Jack did indeed get a bit of practise before initiating his rippings and would easily explain how he could cut a throat so powerfully on his first time of trying it out properly on a human.