Ripper Victim?

[Fisherman]

Harry writes:
"...your theory of one person with two weapons,I find much more appealing than an attack by two different persons"

I realize that, Harry, but wherein lies the appeal? Or, to put it the other way around, why do you dislike the idea of two men?
Is it just the fact - for a fact it is - that it would be statistically less credible? Or do you see something in the actual physical evidence that in any way points away from two perpetrators?

The best,
Fisherman

[perrymason]

Michael,
I appreciate your posts,and your determination to stick with an idea,and no,I wasn't questioning,but rather confirming your position on intent.My self,I see the same qualities in the killer's attack on Tabram,that is why I believe her to be a Ripper victim,and your theory of one person with two weapons,I find much more appealing than an attack by two different persons.
Regards.

Thanks for explaining Harry. I think that the evidence in Martha's case shows a murder closer in "emotional" context to that of Liz's Strides, just less in control with Martha.

As I mentioned with Stride, there is circumstantial evidence that she was involved in an altercation just before her death...raising the possibility of a flash of anger as the cause for the grabbing of her scarf and pulling it back and twisting it while he cut her throat, perhaps while falling. Her death scuffle takes 2 or 3 seconds. How long does Martha's killer take just stabbing away...with only murder as the goal, as with Strides evidence? 39 stabs even using a pump action technique will take around 20 seconds or more. The length of time and the number of stabs to me anyway is likely indicative of an emotional outburst. Like what probably killed Liz.

The two men issue with the two different wounds types I look at like this...the larger wound could have been a dagger or bayonet, we have witnessed interactions with a pair of soldiers at around midnight, and we have another soldier waiting for his pal near George Yard around 2. That seem to suggest that to find 2 men that night where at least 1 is carrying a larger size weapon wouldnt be difficult.

I dont know precisely how many men were paraded in front of Pearly Poll, but I would imagine it was only men on leave that night, and the articles describe "rows". I think its very possible that there were quite a few soldiers on the streets on the eve of a Bank Holiday...maybe many in pairs or more.

Cheers Harry, all the best.

[Sam Flynn]

Tabram x 4½

177 stab-wounds:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/7928568.stm

[Fisherman]

That has to be some sort of record, Sam!

There is a link provided, where you can read this sentence:

"You can imagine how long it would take to inflict 177 stab and slash wounds"

And so, it would seem that this killer was a little bit of both. I don´t think we have to consider that possibility when it comes to Tabram, though, since the one wound that may have been something resembling a slash, was actually also reported as deviating from the rest.

The best!
Fisherman

[harry]

Fisherman,
As the old saying goes,'The appeal is in the eye of the beholder'.Besides,as you are aware,I have explained your questions in previous posts.
Michael,
You touch on the 'Emotional' contex in the murders of Tabram and Stride.An important feature I am sure,but how do we assess that.There is a comparison to be made in the like crimes where the killer has been caught,and their emotions scrutinised,but the Ripper murders seem to be in a class of their own.The question must be asked,did the Whitechapel murderer exhibit emotion in his crimes.
Regards,Harry.

[Fisherman]

I thought as much, Harry!

The best,
Fisherman

[Nothing to see]

Well, this thread is still going. Did Jack evince emotion?

Before, during or after?

Can't say I've seen a lot. Except enjoyment. Satisfaction. Or a few others. Tabram was not a Jack get. IMO.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

I think Tabram's one of those victims who, if someone wants to believe that she was a Ripper victim, then they're gonna think up illogical explanations so that she'll fit into their ideaology. That being said, it's not impossible that she was killed by Jack, but it is highly improbably. Going by what we know of the Ripper by looking at his 3 dead cert canonicals, I just can't see Tabram being one of Jack's victims. It seems almost silly to lump all of the unsolved murders in 1888 together and trying to pen them as Jack's handiwork when it makes a hell of a lot more sense for these murders to be exactly what they probably were; individual murders committed by different men (or women, whichever).

[Nothing to see]

I think Tabram's one of those victims who, if someone wants to believe that she was a Ripper victim, then they're gonna think up illogical explanations so that she'll fit into their ideaology. That being said, it's not impossible that she was killed by Jack, but it is highly improbably. Going by what we know of the Ripper by looking at his 3 dead cert canonicals, I just can't see Tabram being one of Jack's victims. It seems almost silly to lump all of the unsolved murders in 1888 together and trying to pen them as Jack's handiwork when it makes a hell of a lot more sense for these murders to be exactly what they probably were; individual murders committed by different men (or women, whichever).

Well, someone I can agree with. Except Jack had 5.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Well, someone I can agree with. Except Jack had 5.

xD

Well, I used the 3 definitive ones as an example as they're closet to Polly's murder, and if someone's wanting to believe that Tabram's a Ripper victim, then that's a massive amount of serial killer evolution within the space of a few weeks. Almost impossible I'd say.

As to how many victims I think Jack claimed, I'd say 4 (excluding Stride on account of the evidenced and significant differences surrounding her murder in comparison with the others [the lack of mutilation isn't the issue of doubt at all]). But that's for another place. ;p

[Nothing to see]

Hi. Tabram was not one of Jack's gets. There were 5 victims.

Nicholls, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, Kelly.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

I agree with you! Apart from with Stride, for obvious reasons.

[Nothing to see]

I agree with you! Apart from with Stride, for obvious reasons.

No, no, no, no. If Stride wasn't one of Jack's then Eddowes makes no sense.

No, no ,no. Stride's throat was cut by Jack. He just didn't have time to do what he wanted to do. So he wandered off to Mitre SQ.

Stride not a Jack get really doesn't make a lot of sense. To me, anyway. Too much in common.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Not to hijack the thread, but excluding Strides makes a great deal of sense out of all the remaining canonical murders and gives us a proper look at the probable type of killer/person Jack was. I'll have to explain further in-depth either in another thread or via PM. But Stride was 90% unlikely a Ripper victim. In fact, I'd say Stride was in the same league as Tabram. Adding Stride to Jack's body count confuses things a lot.

[Ben]

I think Tabram's one of those victims who, if someone wants to believe that she was a Ripper victim, then they're gonna think up illogical explanations so that she'll fit into their ideaology

Not remotely, M&P.

All they need to do is research a few other serial cases to discover what otherwise "consistent" serial killers are really capable of in terms of criminal diversity, and having done so, they'll quickly appreciate that the transition between Tabram and Nichols is negligible in the extreme in contrast to most. The stark and polar opposite, in fact to "almost impossible". If anything, it's "almost impossible" to accept that Jack was robot-like, mechanical, and frankly Hollywoodesque when it came to uniformity in his methods. Much better to assume diversity in an uncaught serial killer, especially when it comes to assessing their earlier murders which will very rarely be a mirror image of later ones - far from it.

It seems almost silly to lump all of the unsolved murders in 1888 together and trying to pen them as Jack's handiwork

But it's much worse to attibute most of them to different killers, because in so doing we'd be positing the existence of several independent knife-wielding maniacs, all deciding to descend on a small pocket of the East End at around the same time.

Tabram was not one of Jack's gets. There were 5 victims.

Don't keep making ironclad pronouncements please, NTS!

The above is your opinion, and experts in the field of criminology disagree with it.