Ripper Victim?

[DVV]

Hi Mike,
sorry, but Chava is right, and drug or not, the murder was somehow planned, and the murderers had time to talk with their victims.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[Chava]

They were emotional based, drug induced acts, not premeditated...and in that way they were reminiscent of Martha's stabbing...perhaps just replace the drugs with booze.

Michael, I know this case well. Manson picked his killers and sent them to the house. He told Tex exactly what he wanted done, and he told Atkins, Krenwinkle and Kasabian (who in the end stayed outside) to do everything Tex told them to do. And they did. The only unexpected killing that occurred that night was of Stephen Parent, who had been visiting the caretaker, and ran into the killers as they entered the grounds. They shot him. No frenzy there.

Then they went in as they had been told to do. And used knives as they had been told to do. They were completely under Manson's spell, but they weren't hypnotized, drugged, drunk or otherwise physically under someone or something else's control when they committed those crimes.

[perrymason]

Michael, I know this case well. Manson picked his killers and sent them to the house. He told Tex exactly what he wanted done, and he told Atkins, Krenwinkle and Kasabian (who in the end stayed outside) to do everything Tex told them to do. And they did. The only unexpected killing that occurred that night was of Stephen Parent, who had been visiting the caretaker, and ran into the killers as they entered the grounds. They shot him. No frenzy there.

Then they went in as they had been told to do. And used knives as they had been told to do. They were completely under Manson's spell, but they weren't hypnotized, drugged, drunk or otherwise physically under someone or something else's control when they committed those crimes.

Im not sure if it was an Atkins interview or Krenwinkle interview, but they all got high before they left the ranch with Tex having the instructions from Charlie. I believe Atkins was told to stab Sharon and she recounted stabbing away at her back mostly.

My point to both you and David is that there was a plan to kill with knives, and when it was executed, at least one of the murderers did so by just stabbing away...no specific target on the body initially, no specific area or organ, no specific methodology at all.

That to me is quite similar to many many non specific stabs all over the upper body resulting in death.

You can disagree with the words emotional, or frenzied, or a term like blitzkreig style...but it was uncontrolled and non-specific stabbing...just as the Manson deaths were.

I so believe its documented that they were high, maybe its Tex's statements on that, but they were susceptible to spoken commands that would naturally conflict with any level of morality within them, and many of these followers were kids from decent homes.

So they stabbed away when told partly because they had set aside their morality in part, due to the drugs, and their misguided belief in their leader.

Best regards

[DVV]

O'right Mike,
but please, read again your last sentence of post#1290...

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom writes:

"What about her torn clothes? I already addressed that."

Ah - so HE tore the clothing open over her chest, after SHE had lain down and lifted the skirts...? This IS getting interesting.

The best,
Fisherman

I never said that. Please don't misrepresent my standing on issues, fishplate.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jon Guy]

As I pointed out in one of my Ripper Notes essays, her bottles of lotion and medicine were not found on her. I doubt she had completed use of both, or would have discarded the bottles if she had, so these were likely stolen as well.

Hi Tom

According to Casebooks notes on Chapman the bottle of lotion was found by Tim Donovan by her bed after her death.

[perrymason]

O'right Mike,
but please, read again your last sentence of post#1290...

Amitiés mon cher,
David

It was badly worded, I agree fully.The killings were premeditated, but they were executed in less than premeditated actions...I know what I meant to say ....

It is essentially what I posted more recently.

Cheers David.

[Sam Flynn]

And your description of what the Ripper did to Kelly?

Multiple cuts to her face, and controlled cutting elsewhere.

Try conceiving of a "controlled stab" - as if that weren't a preposterous enough concept - and then multiply it 39 times. It just doesn't work.

[perrymason]

Multiple cuts to her face, and controlled cutting elsewhere.

Try conceiving of a "controlled stab" - as if that weren't a preposterous enough concept - and then multiply it 39 times. It just doesn't work.

Hi Sam,

I agree with much of that thinking, Mary Kelly does have wounds on her that required concentration and were performed with some modest precision and control. Not all the wounds, but some do have that element for sure.

I see one controlled wound on Martha...the largest one, intent on finally ending her life....and its a stab too.

All the best Gareth.

[Sam Flynn]

The Manson case? Anyone remember it? Those victims were stabbed over and over and over again. But they weren't killed in a 'frenzy'. It was a premeditated, planned and executed attack

Planning an attack and how you behave when you get there are two different things. Boxing matches are planned well in advance, but to believe that a flurry of punches, unleashed on the spur of the moment in tandem with an adrenalin rush, is somehow "premeditated" would be absurd.

Even if Tabram's death were premeditated, that doesn't detract from the evidence that blow after blow after blow was forcibly rained on her body with a knife, to the extent that the underlying thoracic and upper abdominal organs were punctured. You just can't do that in a controlled manner - it's "whump! whump! whump!" all the way.

[perrymason]

Planning an attack and how you behave when you get there are two different things. Boxing matches are planned well in advance, but to believe that a flurry of punches, unleashed on the spur of the moment in tandem with an adrenalin rush, is somehow "premeditated" would be absurd.

Even if Tabram's death were premeditated, that doesn't detract from the evidence that blow after blow after blow was forcibly rained on her body with a knife, to the extent that the underlying thoracic and upper abdominal organs were punctured. You just can't do that in a controlled manner - it's "whump! whump! whump!" all the way.

Thats a really good analogy, and one that made me stop in my tracks for a sec Sam. Because I agreed right away and then considered that some boxers have moves or sequences choreographed before a fight, Ali being the most famous for that kind or style of boxing.

What stopped me in my tracks is this... what if the guy were are looking for isnt the regular guy that starts swinging when the bell goes, but is more like an Ali? Maybe Martha is killed by Joe Frazier.

But our killer "Ali" starts by subduing them without a knife, then on their backs he slits the throats as deeply as he can, and then he proceeds to do mutilations of some form on their bodies...their misections primarily....sometimes taking things.

Is that perhaps a choreographed sequence that is present in any of the known Canonicals details?

Best regards Sam

[harry]

Michael,
Do you not see intent in those killings?.The killer would not know,nor could he anticipate the exact conditions should he meet a suitable victim,but the fact he did successfully carry out his killings,in public places,and go undetected,shows,to me at least,a high degree of awareness,of clear thinking,and forward thinking.No rush in and stab or slash at random,regardless of the number of strikes.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Even if Tabram's death were premeditated, that doesn't detract from the evidence that blow after blow after blow was forcibly rained on her body with a knife, to the extent that the underlying thoracic and upper abdominal organs were punctured. You just can't do that in a controlled manner - it's "whump! whump! whump!" all the way.

Exactly.

Inn addition, I don't think Tabram's murder was premeditated and frenzied overkill attacks with a knife seldom are.

All the best

[perrymason]

Michael,
Do you not see intent in those killings?.The killer would not know,nor could he anticipate the exact conditions should he meet a suitable victim,but the fact he did successfully carry out his killings,in public places,and go undetected,shows,to me at least,a high degree of awareness,of clear thinking,and forward thinking.No rush in and stab or slash at random,regardless of the number of strikes.

Hi Harry,

Nice to talk with you. I very much do see intent present in some of the Canonicals deaths Harry...Im not sure how I might have conveyed that thinking differently.

My personal take on the murders that Fall is that the 1st attributed victim, the 2nd and the 4th...a murder which may be in reality the 3rd consecutive "Rippered" woman...have what seems to be organized, repetitive almost identical, attack and mutilation behaviors. He had to be organized to accomplish anything aside from the attack itself and the throat cutting...in Kates case If she was seen with her killer...and that seems likely to me....he had 9 minutes from that sighting to get Kate in the square, do all he does with and to her, cut and tear a section of apron and leave the square. That can only be accomplished by using focus and having intent...I agree with you.

Its that intent that is one reason that I rule out Liz Stride's death as being related....we have a witness place only 2 people at the scene of a murder, 15 minutes before the body is found...that time allows for 14 minutes that the Broadshouldered Man could potentially have had with Liz. There is no sign or evidence that any further insult to her was intended. No intent beyond murder.

The man that kills Polly, Annie and Kate....perhaps consecutively, had intentions and acted on them methodically, quickly and with focus.

All the best Harry

[harry]

Michael,
I appreciate your posts,and your determination to stick with an idea,and no,I wasn't questioning,but rather confirming your position on intent.My self,I see the same qualities in the killer's attack on Tabram,that is why I believe her to be a Ripper victim,and your theory of one person with two weapons,I find much more appealing than an attack by two different persons.
Regards.