Ripper Victim?

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Jez,

Voluminous underclothing and the risk of being disturbed would surely have ruled out almost every position apart from a very swift Tuppenny or Fourpenny Upright.

Tabram's skirt had been lifted, and her lower abdomen and legs were exposed. On that basis, it would appear that "missionary" sex was clearly a logistical possibility.

Also, tuppenny/fourpenny uprights are all well and good if you're operating in a muddy, narrow public alleyway - but Martha was not found in such a place, having had at her disposal the slightly more salubrious setting of a Model Dwelling House.

[Jeff Leahy]

Sounds like Semantics to me

Good night

Pirate

[Sam Flynn]

Sounds like Semantics to me

To the right of David's navel - as we look at it - an illustration of a cut 3" long (to scale), as inflicted on Martha Tabram's "lower body". To the left, a "rip" of comparable dimensions to the one inflicted on Eddowes' abdomen - well, most of it at least:

[Chava]

What a pretty picture of the David! Would you do me a favour, Gareth? Would you draw on that picture in red all the wounds that were found on Kelly's body? And then we can compare her wounds to Eddowes' wounds. That is, of course, if you have enough red to colour all the bits and bobs that were cut/missing/skinned.

Also, tuppenny/fourpenny uprights are all well and good if you're operating in a muddy, narrow public alleyway - but Martha was not found in such a place, having had at her disposal the slightly more salubrious setting of a Model Dwelling House.

If it was a salubrious Model Dwelling, then people would not have been allowed to doss down on the landings. That kind of thing did not happen at the Rothschild Buildings which were tightly-ran. Again, you can't have it both ways. If it was a well-run Model Dwelling full of the Respectable Poor, dossers on the landings would have been chased with a broom-handle or whatever kind of weapon that came to hand. If it was a tenement full of very poor and not-very-particular people, then dossers spending the night on the landings would not have been so adamantly discouraged. And a landing in a building like that could also have served as a wonderfully handy public urinal/waste depository. I doubt if even the poorest prostitute would have lain down in such a place. Nor was she expected to. The advantage of a threepenny knee trembler was that, if disturbed, the participants were on their feet and could get out quickly. That would be helpful in a couple of instances. (1) If a morally-minded copper happened by or (2) if an immorally-minded mugger came by and thought to roll the punter while he was on the ground and otherwise engaged. It wasn't just the prostitutes that weren't too choosy in that area. The tricks didn't expect too many frills either.

[Sam Flynn]

What a pretty picture of the David! Would you do me a favour, Gareth? Would you draw on that picture in red all the wounds that were found on Kelly's body?

Another time, perhaps - when I've got enough electronic ink

If it was a salubrious Model Dwelling

I said "slightly more salubrious", Chava, meaning in comparison to a dank alleyway.

If it was a well-run Model Dwelling full of the Respectable Poor, dossers on the landings would have been chased with a broom-handle or whatever kind of weapon that came to hand...

...in the wee small hours of the morning.

The advantage of a threepenny knee trembler was that the participants were on their feet and could get out quickly.

Dead handy in an alleyway, I agree. Unfortunately, Tabram and her man were indoors.

That would be helpful in a couple of instances. (1) If a copper happened by or (2) if a mugger came by to roll the punter

I wish we knew more about police beats - in which case we might be able to put a name and number to the chap who patrolled the landings of dwellings in George Yard. As to muggers, I'm not sure that the "Wooden Hill Mob" were operating in the area at the time.

All in all, the benefits conferred by an indoor location, however rudimentary, would seem to have been many and varied compared to the great outdoors. Perhaps punters would have been prepared to pay a little extra for the opportunity.

[Chava]

Gareth, if people were sleeping on the landing in the small hours, likely they were pissing there as well. As I've already pointed out, the Rothschild Buildings never had to worry about this kind of thing. They kept those apartments spandy nice. No one ever slept on the landings there, in the small hours or at any other time.

As for George Yard Buildings being 'indoors'. Well it was. But the landings weren't heated and were probably dank and cold as well as smelly. If you are under the fond impression that the landing was a lovely cosy alcove, well let me disabuse you. It wasn't. No one's lying down there.

And now let's look at the David, shall we? You don't have enough electronic ink to show what was done to Kelly, because what was done was overwhelming. The difference between what was done to Eddowes and what was done to Kelly is extraordinary. The Kelly murder was an extreme escalation of the violence. Much like the escalation between Tabram and Eddowes.

[Fisherman]

Sam writes:

"If you could supply the "rule" that says that Victorian prostitutes would never lie down in a stairwell I might meet you halfway, Fish.
BTW, I'm not too hung up on the notion of the "tuppenny upright". Just because it gets mentioned in some Ripper books, I have no reason to believe that it was the only position in the Whitechapel prossies' Kama Sutra."

I really don´t think the ordinary Whitechapel prostitute would have offered a full Kama Sutra of possible positions for intercourse, Sam. It would probably be a choice of do or don´t, and nothing along the line of things that carry French names and risks of ortopaedic confusion.

You can keep saying it is a possibility all day long, but you will be wasting your time, since nobody is denying that. A lot of stranger things have happened.
What I am saying, though - realizing that any statistical material will illude me completely - is that I don´t find it very probable at all. A prostitute that had spent the night rolling around in excrements and piss would soon enough see her takings drop dramatically, so that risk would be one she´d not take.
And IF she was to let herself be persuaded to go down on that landing, I think she at least would want to check if it was halfway decent before she did so. And that was something she could not accomplish in a darkness that was total!
For all she knew, she may have ended up on anything from a rat, over dogshit, to a paper saying that Whitechapel prostitutes did not mind to go down on their backs in potentially very grimy spaces to do business. And to my mind, none of these things come clean

All the best, Sam!
Fisherman

[Nothing to see]

Absolutely right Fisherman. These hookers were standing upright, skirts up, and the 'sex' was usually between the thighs, not proper intercourse. From the front, from behind. That's what I understand from what I've read. I really can't see these hookers lying down in dirt and mud, on stairs, wherever to service their johns. What they wore were basically the only clothes they had. Doesn't make sense to me. Anyway, JMO.

[Jeff Leahy]

Sam writes:

"If you could supply the "rule" that says that Victorian prostitutes would never lie down in a stairwell I might meet you halfway, Fish.
BTW, I'm not too hung up on the notion of the "tuppenny upright". Just because it gets mentioned in some Ripper books, I have no reason to believe that it was the only position in the Whitechapel prossies' Kama Sutra."

I really don´t think the ordinary Whitechapel prostitute would have offered a full Kama Sutra of possible positions for intercourse, Sam. It would probably be a choice of do or don´t, and nothing along the line of things that carry French names and risks of ortopaedic confusion.

You can keep saying it is a possibility all day long, but you will be wasting your time, since nobody is denying that. A lot of stranger things have happened.
What I am saying, though - realizing that any statistical material will illude me completely - is that I don´t find it very probable at all. A prostitute that had spent the night rolling around in excrements and piss would soon enough see her takings drop dramatically, so that risk would be one she´d not take.
And IF she was to let herself be persuaded to go down on that landing, I think she at least would want to check if it was halfway decent before she did so. And that was something she could not accomplish in a darkness that was total!
For all she knew, she may have ended up on anything from a rat, over dogshit, to a paper saying that Whitechapel prostitutes did not mind to go down on their backs in potentially very grimy spaces to do business. And to my mind, none of these things come clean

All the best, Sam!
Fisherman

I think you should be careful Fish. While I agree with you , on the whole, Martha was an alcoholic, more of a bag lady than a prostitute. She would have smelt bad what ever, they probably all did by our modern day noses.

Pirate

[harry]

Even today,in any large city,people can be observed sleeping in cold,dank places,even on private property.August,being a summer month in England,would be unlikely to produce extreme weather conditions,and none were reported.As to the state of the landings,there would have been regular cleaning by occupants of the buildings,and I guarantee all would have been toilet trained.Anyone reading some of these posts might think 1888 in England ,a period of the dark ages.

[Jeff Leahy]

Even today,in any large city,people can be observed sleeping in cold,dank places,even on private property.August,being a summer month in England,would be unlikely to produce extreme weather conditions,and none were reported.As to the state of the landings,there would have been regular cleaning by occupants of the buildings,and I guarantee all would have been toilet trained.Anyone reading some of these posts might think 1888 in England ,a period of the dark ages.

Actually Harry there were a lot of bizarre weather conditions that year. It rained all summer and actually snowed in June. But Martha getting some kip on the landing seems like a possibility to me. Having sex with a client laying down, less of a possibility. However I woud imagin that you pay your money you take your choice.

Pirate

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

While I think it likely Tabram's killer turned up her skirt, I personally have no problem with the idea of her laying on the floor. How many nights might she have spent lying on the dirty ground of Itchy Park?

The neighbors said people would lie down and sleep in that very spot all the time. If not them, then why not Martha? She certainly wasn't any better.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

True again, Tom. Good points.

All the best

[Fisherman]

Jeff writes:

"I think you should be careful Fish."

That is a consideration that would have applied to Martha Tabram too, at least to some extent. I agree with you that sex would have been a standing business. It would have applied with very few exceptions in the alleys and streets, and there is no reason not to believe that it would have been the prioritized method on the landings of tenement houses too.

And, as I have already said, no matter if that landing was scrubbed enough to reflect Marthas mirror image, she would not have known that since it was pitch dark. We also know that none of the residents recognized her, and therefore we cannot readily assume that George Yard was the everyday venue for her to take care of business.

So, concluding things, I do believe that I actually am the one who IS being careful here. To throw forward the suggestion that Tabram would have lain down on that floor without even beeing able to see it is somewhat more reckless, at least the way I see things. Not that you are suggesting it, Jeff - but others obviously are.

The best,
Fisherman

[Chava]

As to the state of the landings,there would have been regular cleaning by occupants of the buildings,and I guarantee all would have been toilet trained.Anyone reading some of these posts might think 1888 in England ,a period of the dark ages.

I think you'd get a bit of a shock if you went back there. As for 'toilet training', may I refer you to Polly Toynbee's book Hard Work in which she describes an estate in South London where she lives for a while to do research. It's basically one big latrine. Especially the lifts and the stairwells. And the block she lives in is mostly populated by decent working people who keep their flats spotless. They despair of the common areas, which are always filthy and cluttered with disgusting trash of all kinds. I imagine George Yard Buildings to be very similar to this.

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks, Glenn. Everyone here seems to be overlooking the FACT that George Yard residents reported people SLEEPING in the very spot Tabram was killed. You might also remember that it was outside the door of the building managers, so perhaps it wasn't completely filthy. But even if it were dirty, these are homeless people we're talking about. Then as now, they don't mind a little dirt if they can attain a warm, dry place to sleep.

It's not impossible that Nichols, Tabram, and Chapman were sleeping when attacked. Certainly Kelly was in bed.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott