Ripper Victim?

[Sam Flynn]

Sam I'm not getting your train of thought? Are you suggesting Martha lifted her skirt?

I'm stating, as a matter of fact, that prostitutes are known to lift their skirts, or to have them lifted, in the process of conducting their business. I'm also observing that Martha was a prostitute, and that she was known to be soliciting on the night she died.

[Jeff Leahy]

I'm stating, as a matter of fact, that prostitutes are known to lift their skirts, or to have them lifted, in the process of conducting their business. I'm also observing that Martha was a prostitute, and that she was known to be soliciting on the night she died.

I have no problem with that statement Sam. I'm just saying that I don't believe that that is how Martha's skirt was raised.

We appear to be boncing threads

All best P

[Chava]

Do we know how far that skirt was lifted? Was it exposing her lower legs? Her thighs? Her genital area?

I can believe she lifted her skirt for punters. But I doubt she did it lying down. That landing is exactly the kind of dark corner that a drunken man might piss in on his way home from the pub. I remember being in East End tenements, and the staircases always stank of urine. These women may have been destitute, but I doubt they would voluntarily lie down in any public area of the East End.

[Fisherman]

Chava asks:

"Do we know how far that skirt was lifted?"

Thanks to the thorough PC Barrett, we actually do, Chava: The clothing was lifted to the centre of the body, "leaving the lower part of the body exposed".

And I agree wholeheartedly that Tabram would not voluntarily have gone down on her back on that landing.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

The lifting of the skirts could have fascilitated getting to her pockets for her money and have had no sexual connotations. I have to say I'm with Fish and Pirate in that her killer probably lifted her skirts. Two questions, if anyone knows the answers:

1) Was she found with any money on her?

2) Did any of the knife wounds penetrate her skirt in such a way as to suggest it was lifted prior to her being stabbed?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

It is interesting, that one illustration from the tabloids at the time shows Tabram lying in a pool of blood, and with her dress perforated with a lot of stabs.
That said, it seems unlikely that the illustrator was there, he probably based this on second hand accounts or his own imagination. To be honest, I don't know if the wounds went through her clothing, but I would think that the lifting of the skirt might have happened when the killer attacked her stomach area.
As far as I am concerned, the lifting of the skirt means very little for the Ripper context - as I said, this is often displayed in all types of female murders with some sort of sexual implication and there could be million reasons for why this happened. It is not in any way singular, nor is it unique for the Ripper. Most likely it had a practical purpose and may be connected with the stabbing, nothing else.

All the best

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Tom

I’ve not seen any detailed description of the clothing and could find none while sifting through my reference books the other day. My conclusion was that we don’t have an accurate description of the clothing; it was only ever noted to help identify the victim. Not as any clue to the killers attack or how that attack happened.

It would be interesting to know if some cuts didn’t penetrate the clothing?

In the Nichols murder the clothes were stripped and dumped and the body washed before being examined. I speculate that something similar happened to Martha, but it is more speculation on my part I’m afraid.

All the best

Pirate

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks for that, Pirate and Glenn. I believe Glenn is correct that the lifting of the skirts would have had a practical purpose. It may as simple as that his penknife was not powerful enough to penetrate through her thick clothing. That might explain the location of the wounds.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Yep , its what I've been arguing for nearly two weeks now

all the best P

[Chava]

It may as simple as that his penknife was not powerful enough to penetrate through her thick clothing. That might explain the location of the wounds.

But someone in a frenzy would not likely be thinking that clearly, would they? I am certain the murderer lifted her skirts, and if he wasn't interested in her 'sexually' (for want of a better word) I'm not sure why he would take the time to do that during his attack. That's the thing, one can't have it both ways. If it's a frenzied attack done by someone enraged for whatever reason, then I doubt the attacker would notice whether his knife penetrated clothing or not. If he takes the time to notice that, then I don't think he's in a frenzy at all.

[Fisherman]

Glenn writes:

"To be honest, I don't know if the wounds went through her clothing, but I would think that the lifting of the skirt might have happened when the killer attacked her stomach area."

So, Glenn, are you suggesting that the stabber satisfied himself with stabbing through her clothes on the breast area, but preferred to lift the skirts before he set about stabbing further down?
If so, would that not be slightly odd for a frenzied man???

Actually, since we have no recordings of any of the stabs going further down than the lower parts of her ribcage (liver, stomach and spleen), there is good reason to believe that ALL of the stabs went through her clothes.
If this holds true, and we go by your suggestion, then we are faced with a guy who stabs through her clothing repeatedly, after which he takes the trouble to lift her skirts to the centre of her body and tries to stab her once to the lower abdomen, misses, and comes up with a cut.

Chava, you are of course right - frenzied killers do not start by assessing the thickness of the material they are to stab through - they stab away, and either the knife manages it or it breaks.

Tom, you are right - the purpose of lifting her skirts WAS in all probability practical; the man who did it needed access to the lower abdomen. And, speaking of that, don´t we know just such a guy...?

Hmmmm?????

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom, you are right - the purpose of lifting her skirts WAS in all probability practical; the man who did it needed access to the lower abdomen. And, speaking of that, don´t we know just such a guy...?

Ron Jeremy?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

It may as simple as that his penknife was not powerful enough to penetrate through her thick clothing. That might explain the location of the wounds.

Yes, that sounds plausible to me.

All the best

[c.d.]

Ron Jeremy?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Good one, Tom. It might take some "splainin" for those across the pond.

c.d.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Good one, Tom. It might take some "splainin" for those across the pond.

c.d.

Don't be so sure, c.d.

All the best