Ripper Victim?

[Chava]

If she's positioned, then you're in a very different territory from the one you started out in. Rage killers, random killers, killers who kill in the course of another felony, they don't position anything unless they are trying to make the scene look like an accident. And even the dimmest bulb would realize that this kill couldn't be an accident.

As for the blow on the head. I agree. It comes as the first part of the attack, in order to render the victim defenceless.

Jack, if he's wanted to slash rather than stab, he could have lifted her skirt, as was done on the other kills. I do agree with those who consider that to be evidence of another killer. However I don't think the Ripper's polished technique arrived all of a sudden. So I think it could well be possible that he stabbed first, found it unsatisfying in terms of what he wanted out of the experience, and then started ripping instead.

[Shelley]

Chava,
Not if the killer of Martha was indeed a soldier and thought it was funny to position her like that, personally i go with the soldier theory on this, a soldier probably itching for his first kill, he would have a soldier or two cover his back for him. However some soldiers wouldn't approve of such a killing, but yet again if you get a young hot head soldier who is sadistic,this could well explain the positioning of Martha, also other young soldiers aren't ready to dob in a fellow soldier over a middle-aged nearly hasbeen of a whore. With such a quick attack that's frenzied young blood is quite capable, also a young man wouldn't be sexually interested in a middle-aged part-time prostitute, he'd be interested in a younger one like Mary Kelly. Also ones syphilis free.

[Jeff Leahy]

Jack, if he's wanted to slash rather than stab, he could have lifted her skirt, as was done on the other kills. I do agree with those who consider that to be evidence of another killer. However I don't think the Ripper's polished technique arrived all of a sudden. So I think it could well be possible that he stabbed first, found it unsatisfying in terms of what he wanted out of the experience, and then started ripping instead.

The point I'm making, and one which Sam usually employs (and is correct to do so) is that what you see in the ripper attacks is the result of necessity. Its just the simplest way to explain method.

Tabram unlike the others was Stabbed to the body. This meant that the killer by necessity, also had to cut through the clothing. A SLASH would be pretty useless giving NO penetration, so the attacker, out of necessity was forced to STAB the victim, in order to get through the clothing.

Presumably the body was stripped at he mortuary (as per Nichols) and the clothing discarded...

So when Kolleen was making his examination of the injuries presumably the clothing wasn't taken into account. Yet clearly it can explain the different wounds and why jacks MO altered on the later C5. Cutting at the soft underbelly so to speak....

As I said before we have a DUCK. But this duck had her feathers on.

Pirate

[Fisherman]

I take it, Jeff, that you realize that your argumentation points very much towards the abdominal cut having been inflicted at a space where she had no clothes on...? So it would seem that if it was one killer only, he stabbed through her clothing 38 times, only to finish by lifting her skirts and cutting her once at an area where no other wounds were inflicted.

Don´t you find this slightly strange?

The best,
Fisherman

[Jeff Leahy]

I take it, Jeff, that you realize that your argumentation points very much towards the abdominal cut having been inflicted at a space where she had no clothes on...? So it would seem that if it was one killer only, he stabbed through her clothing 38 times, only to finish by lifting her skirts and cutting her once at an area where no other wounds were inflicted.

Don´t you find this slightly strange?

The best,
Fisherman

You'd find it strange if Tabram was the third or fourth victim but she was the first..unless you factor in Wilson and Millwood who were also attacked through clothing.

Perhaps having stabbed through the clothing, which create the sallow stab wounds he tears open the bonice and attacks the heart. Finally he lifts the skirt and cuts the abdoman for the first time. He likes it, it gves him his thrill...next time there would be more...why waste time and energy stabbing at whale bone when you can go straight for the soft flesh underneith?

Jack is learning and learning fast..

Pirate

[Fisherman]

Jeff writes:

"Perhaps having stabbed through the clothing, which create the sallow stab wounds he tears open the bonice and attacks the heart. Finally he lifts the skirt and cuts the abdoman for the first time."

You are forgetting one thing, Jeff. If he did it this way, then he swopped knifes before he stabbed at the heart. And if he liked cutting into the abdomen, why would he not stay at it? Why decide that´s what you like to do - only to leave a body behind without indulging?

I´m telling you, brother, no matter how you twist and turn it, it is not until you accept two knife-men that you can add suitable logic to all of this. If it was just the one man, then he changed his agenda at the same time he changed his weapon - and that does not come across as very viable to me.

The best,
Fisherman

[CLK]

How long are pen knives?

[Fisherman]

They´re not.

The best,
Fisherman

[CLK]

How long is the blade in a penknife?

[Shelley]

How long are pen knives?

They came in different sizes, some were for use & other sheer novelty, the ones i do recall came in sizes such as 1 1/2 inches in length, 2 1/4 inches in length, 3" inches in length, also 4" inches in length, 6" inches in length.
I think the mention of pen-knives were due to the emphasis of the weapon used on Tabrams heart, that the depth was greater than the other wounds inflicted on a more tough organ/muscle that would have been more difficult to penetrate than the other softer organs that were also punctured, it seems Dr Killeen giving his description of ' Pen-knife ' meant that the other organs punctured on Tabram was quite a doddle in comparision to the wounding and depth of wound to the heart which also went through bone, hence the description of two weapons used on Tabram in Dr Killeen's report to police & the inquest.

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff writes:

"Perhaps having stabbed through the clothing, which create the sallow stab wounds he tears open the bonice and attacks the heart. Finally he lifts the skirt and cuts the abdoman for the first time."

You are forgetting one thing, Jeff. If he did it this way, then he swopped knifes before he stabbed at the heart. And if he liked cutting into the abdomen, why would he not stay at it? Why decide that´s what you like to do - only to leave a body behind without indulging?

I´m telling you, brother, no matter how you twist and turn it, it is not until you accept two knife-men that you can add suitable logic to all of this. If it was just the one man, then he changed his agenda at the same time he changed his weapon - and that does not come across as very viable to me.

The best,
Fisherman

The piont that I'm trying to make is could a blade travelling through different clothing and material deceive Killean into beleiving different knives were used?

especially if the body had already been stripped of clothing before he examined it (as per practice)

Perhaps he was looking at the same knife blade effected by passing through different layers of clothing???

Pirate

[CLK]

They came in different sizes, some were for use & other sheer novelty, the ones i do recall came in sizes such as 1 1/2 inches in length, 2 1/4 inches in length, 3" inches in length, also 4" inches in length, 6" inches in length.
I think the mention of pen-knives were due to the emphasis of the weapon used on Tabrams heart, that the depth was greater than the other wounds inflicted on a more tough organ/muscle that would have been more difficult to penetrate than the other softer organs that were also punctured, it seems Dr Killeen giving his description of ' Pen-knife ' meant that the other organs punctured on Tabram was quite a doddle in comparision to the wounding and depth of wound to the heart which also went through bone, hence the description of two weapons used on Tabram in Dr Killeen's report to police & the inquest.

Thanks just wanted to know. 3 x 1 rip is not deep because the size of the blade? Another question, how much noise would stabbing someone in a frenzy 39 times make?

[Shelley]

Thanks just wanted to know. 3 x 1 rip is not deep because the size of the blade? Another question, how much noise would stabbing someone in a frenzy 39 times make?

A 3 x 1 rip can possibly be created by an accident, such as a slip with drawing up the knife again after a downward stroke as in an ' overhand ' motion with heavier clothing due to blood ozzing on clothes taken into consideration, in using an overhand motion slips show up more below, rather than upper.
As for sound with the stabbing, it depends, how much the killer was moving in his stabbings, carry of sound and also the building walls etc. How much sound proofing where the materials to construct such a building, as with one building to another, some carry more of an echo say than others. With George Yard Buldings, i don't know, and as mentioned before the residents of the building were co-operative with the police and they heard nothing.

[Fisherman]

Jeff asks:

"The piont that I'm trying to make is could a blade travelling through different clothing and material deceive Killean into beleiving different knives were used"

I really dont think so, Jeff. The blade effectively pierced her so many times that it would be a piece of cake for Killeen to establish the width of the smaller blade. And he was very adamant about the fact that the blade that pierced the sternum was of another type. He clearly said that the two did not correspond, and that the small blade could not have caused the sternum wound. We of course cannot establish the different widths of these two blades, but I think that it would be fair to guess that there were major differences involved.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Re Jeff's thoughtful point on not being able to "rip" effectively through clothing... Tabram's killer lifted up her skirts, but still didn't bother ripping her; neither did he slash her (bare) throat.

Clearly, this guy was intent on stabbing, almost to the exclusion of anything else, and his focus was emphatically on the upper half of the body. This despite the fact that Tabram's belly was exposed, and quite possibly remained exposed throughout his onslaught on her neck, chest and stomach.