Ripper Victim?

[Fisherman]

The initial stabber shoved his knife through Tabrams garments, if I´m correct, and left her for dead. As Jack made his entrance, he would have been the one who lifted her skirts - which is consistent with his behaviour in the other cases (Stride aside, of course...!)
After that he inflicted the wound to the lower abdomen, and finished her of with a stab to the heart.

And TWO BLADES WERE USED! As long as you fail to recognize that point, as clearly stated by the doctor who took care of the post-mortem, a few more hours of sleep may be called for, Jeff!

The best,
Fisherman

[Nothing to see]

http://www.casebook.org/podcast/listen.html?id=51

Hi Guys

As always I sleep on things and something nags away in the back of my head. Something everyone seems to have missed and not commented on. So I went back to the podcast and considered Howard's claim about attacking a piece of polystyrene 38 times.

And it occurred to me that you’ve all missed something. A fundamental difference between the Tabram attack and the attacks on Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes and Kelly.

Surely if Howard’s experiment was to be correct then the piece of polystyrene he used, unlike an experiment on the other victims, should have been rapped in a corset? As the blows were to the body.

Because Martha unlike Jacks other victims was surely stabbed through her clothes?

Unless anyone is suggesting that Martha’s killer undressed her stabbed her 38 times, redressed her pulled out a bayonet and finished her off..

The other victims were all strangled, lowered to the ground their throats cut, their dresses raised…allowing jack to get at the soft flesh under the garments that they were wearing…..HENCE SLASHING

Where as Martha was strangled lowered to the ground and Stabbed through her clothing. SLASHING would have been pretty useless through her clothing…she probably wore several layers which would have protected her against SLASHING.

So the attacker did the only thing possible…he STABBED through the clothing again and again. This was of course tiring as cutting material with even a Sharpe knife let alone through a corset is almost impossible. So eventually he tears a hole in the material sticking the blade into the sternum,,,which gets stuck, so he pushes it backwards and forwards trying to release it…..leaving a wound different to the others.

As for the difference in the cut to the abdomen, it was simply caused by cutting through lighter material covering Tabram on the lower half of the body.

NO mystery. One knife. Used through differing material/clothing to the other victims.

Jack clearly learned that trying to kill a prostitute through her dress material is exhausting and decided to raise their dresses and get at the soft flesh underneath in future attacks…problem solved.

Unless you no other wise?

Pirate

Ps Looks like we have a Duck wearing feathers

Hi. I read the inquest report a short time ago and Killeen doesn't mention that Tabram was strangled. Where do you have this info from cause I'd like to check it out. Killeen states that the cause of death was from the stab wound to the heart. He doesn't mention strangulation.

[Fisherman]

NTS writes:

"Jack as a scavenger? I get your points. But really? You think? Jack who got the pros to go with him, in dark corners sure, who did his work then left them in public would have begun by lurking around George Yard?"

Phew! How many times must I explain this??

Ask yourself, NTS, what kind of killer Jack was: Was he the type who needed the kill? I´d say emphatically no - his interest lay in the abdominal opening and eviscerations, and therefore he despatched his victims as fast and as silent as he could. That secured him exactly what he wanted/needed: A dead woman who he could rip up and mutilate.

In Jacks perfect world, the streets would have been littered with dead women, ripe and ready for ripping, if my guess is correct. In my article in Ripperologist back in November, I point out that John Bennetts find of a photo of the back of George Yard buildings tells us that the landings there were open-air galleries! Therefore, the murder of Martha Tabram, that has always been believed to have taken place in a dark, secretive spot deep inside the house, may well have been something of a public affair. And if so, anybody who was inside the block behind George Yard Buildings may have seen and recognized what was going on on that landing!

My guess is that Jack became witness to Tabram being subdued and knifed that night - and that this was what gave birth to the Ripper. It was an opportunity he could not let slip by. And when the stabber left, he took over, lifting Tabrams skirts, and commencing to cut her abdomen. We know, though (since Killeen tells us so) that Tabram LIVED throughout the stabbing. And so, as he put his knife to her stomach and started cutting, my guess is that she moaned or screamed or something like that, leaving Jack in a situation with a woman potentially waking up the neighbours on the landing. That is why I believe he panicked, more or less, and stabbed her through the sternum in order to make sure that she would never give him away. Then he ran.

This scenario would explain why there is a difference between the 37 frenzied, minor stab wounds with no focus at all, and the two larger, much more deliberate and focused wounds - the one to the heart and the cut to the abdomen.
It would explain how the deed could be silent, although there were two killers involved - for there was a period of time inbetween them, explaining why Tabram bled profusely enough for Killeen to be able to state that she had lived through the stabbing.
Last, but not least, if we accept a scenario like this, with a killer who needs to open up the abdomen of a woman, but who is forced to abort it since she squeals, leaving him no other option but to run for it - if we look at it this way, what measure would be the first one that killer came up with before his next kill, to ensure that he was not disturbed? Perhaps, NTL, he would cut off the windpipe and the arteries on his next victim BEFORE he tried to cut her open?

That is what I think happened in George Yard buildings, and I do so since it is a scenario that explains every detail involved, the rage, the lifting of the skirts, the commenced cut at the abdomen, the stab through the heart and the two blades. Plus it offers an explanation to why the Ripper suddenly realized the practical benefits of cutting necks!

To this it may also be added that it all went down in the block facing the Victoria Mens home, where a certain Joseph Fleming lived. And it seems he moved there in August 1888.

That should give you some idea of what I´m getting at!

The best,
Fisherman

[Jeff Leahy]

As i've pionted out. YOU CANT SLASH SOMEONE THROUGH THERE CLOTHES.

Jack attacked Martha to the body, unlike his other victims so STABBING was his only option..

A learning Jack not a savenger.

Pirate

[Fisherman]

Jeff writes:

"A learning Jack not a savenger."

...which is clearly and definitely supported by.....what, Jeff? Your own picture of a fierce, stealthy creature? Are you suggesting that he would let an opportunity involving a cut, subdued, badly bleeding woman in a secretive place just slip him by because he preferred to do the killing himself?

The best,
Fisherman

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi. I read the inquest report a short time ago and Killeen doesn't mention that Tabram was strangled. Where do you have this info from cause I'd like to check it out. Killeen states that the cause of death was from the stab wound to the heart. He doesn't mention strangulation.

The simplest way is to check out the podcast?

However if you look closely at the Tabram photo her tongue appears to be petruding. Also we only have news paper reports , NO autopsie. Its been suggested that info was held back as Swanson mentions a throat cut.

But as i have mentioned, SLASHING and STABBING can be explained by Martha having been attacked through her clothes.

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff writes:

"A learning Jack not a savenger."

...which is clearly and definitely supported by.....what, Jeff? Your own picture of a fierce, stealthy creature? Are you suggesting that he would let an opportunity involving a cut, subdued, badly bleeding woman in a secretive place just slip him by because he preferred to do the killing himself?

The best,
Fisherman

Supported by the fact that he attacked Martha through her clothing and got covered with blood.

If it was jack that committed this murder he clearly learned that it wasnt very effective and changed his MO.

a) By cutting their throats and directing blood away from himself.

b) To cut the victims by avoiding also cutting through their clothing. Hence change from Stabbing to Slashing.

A learning Jack. Learning through experience.

Pirate

PS and i'm not suggesting Jack would pass the opportunity by. Justy that the odds of this happening are very remote. This kind of murder is extremely rare. Which is why I'm suggesting in all probability this was a Ripper attack.

PS PS and this would be a man unnoticed who was 6' 6'' in height?

Isn't it just simpler to explain the differance in stab wounds by the fact that Martha's killer went through her clothing. While who ever attacked the C5 did not...

[Fisherman]

Jeff writes:
"Supported by the fact that he attacked Martha through her clothing and got covered with blood.
If it was jack that committed this murder he clearly learned that it wasnt very effective and changed his MO.
a) By cutting their throats and directing blood away from himself.
b) To cut the victims by avoiding also cutting through their clothing. Hence change from Stabbing to Slashing.
A learning Jack. Learning through experience."

...meaning that I will direct you to my post No 753 above.

The best,
Fisherman

[Shelley]

Ben,
I think we all know that's what he meant, and he is still wrong!

All the best

Glenn,

I still consider myself, that a killer who knows how to make his victim unconcious with a chokehold, he will be aware that deep cutting to the throat is beyond it's normal capacity to render the victim dead. Chokehold is evident in Nicholls, Chapman as well as Eddowes, Chapman's swollen and protruding tongue and her clenched fist ( Chapman was a bigger girl than waif like Eddowes and Nicholls was not as big as Chapman, so he applied more force with Chapman). So even with the chokehold the killer knew who to apply more force with and which victim he did not have to use so much force with. Once your victim is unconcious and you cut the throat, you know that once you have severed the front part, it's likely that your victim is dead, this is marked in the extra force of a chokehold with one victim and not so much applied force in another victim, so to my mind to state that he was ensuring death in his victim to cut the throat to almost severing the head is ridiculos!
Cheers
Shelley

[Shelley]

Jeff writes:
"Supported by the fact that he attacked Martha through her clothing and got covered with blood.
If it was jack that committed this murder he clearly learned that it wasnt very effective and changed his MO.
a) By cutting their throats and directing blood away from himself.
b) To cut the victims by avoiding also cutting through their clothing. Hence change from Stabbing to Slashing.
A learning Jack. Learning through experience."

...meaning that I will direct you to my post No 753 above.

The best,
Fisherman

This is nonsense, layers of clothing soaks up blood, so the killer wouldn't have blood on him, not the killer of Martha ( blood oozed out from Martha because the clothing was punctured, hence pool of blood she lay in if any blood spatter on Marth's killer would have been minute and a spray, no blood on the killer with Nicholls, Chapman or Eddowes, any lifting of clothes to do mutilation would only result on the hands and wrists, this is wiped off on the clothing, so no blood on the killer. It was different with Kelly because she didn't have layers of clothing and she was attacked extremely forcefully head on hence blood spattering.

[Chava]

More importantly to me: how was Tabram subdued while this stabbing is going on? She's found laid-out, which as you know worries me. There is no suggestion of struggle. And if 39 stab wounds were mostly delivered while she was still living, I would expect to see a couple of defense wounds on the hands...

If in fact she was strangled first or hit on the head, that suggests premeditation to me rather than a surprise blitz attack in a rage. And that would be another point for the Ripper.

[Fisherman]

Chava writes:

"If in fact she was strangled first or hit on the head, that suggests premeditation to me rather than a surprise blitz attack in a rage. And that would be another point for the Ripper."

It would, Chava - but I don´t think the Ripper was the one who knocked her over the head, and to be honest I´m not sure that anybody did. It may well have been the result of her falling to the ground. Then again, it could be that the stabber shoved her head against the brick wall as she was standing up.

Whichever way, as far as I´m concerned, the silence of the deed tells us that the blood effusion was caused very early on in the attack, and if so, it came about as she was in the hands of the unfocused, frenzied stabber. And that was not Jack, the way I see things.

The best,
Fisherman

[Jeff Leahy]

My theory on that is that he strangled her but not very well. That she regained consciousness and thats when he decided to finish her off.

And still no ones come up with an arguement against STABBING and SLASHING through clothing. Does this not explain the difference in MO Styles?

Pirate

[Shelley]

More importantly to me: how was Tabram subdued while this stabbing is going on? She's found laid-out, which as you know worries me. There is no suggestion of struggle. And if 39 stab wounds were mostly delivered while she was still living, I would expect to see a couple of defense wounds on the hands...

If in fact she was strangled first or hit on the head, that suggests premeditation to me rather than a surprise blitz attack in a rage. And that would be another point for the Ripper.

Chava,
It could be the blow on the head that subdued her for a quick frenzied attack, yet again if the brain doesn't register stabbing going on because it's too quick, shock and the rest delivers non normal responses,so a bit of both there. However lungs punctured can cause death most definatley, it doesn't have to be the heart ( even a cut artery in the leg can cause someone to bleed to death). I guess the killer didn't know that, so he hit the heart as well. My take on it given the descriptions Sam gave of the wounding, she was taken to George Yard buildings to be killed. Someone used her for target practice. She was also positioned there by her killer, an open and powerless position.

[Ben]

Some great points well made there, Jeff, and you're right, it's very possible that she was srangled or suffocated.

Just a quick deviation, though:

PS PS and this would be a man unnoticed who was 6' 6'' in height?

I'm not at all convinced that Fleming was anywhere near as lofty as all that. It's nigh on impossible for a man that tall to be in "good" bodily health if he was only 11 stone in weight.

Best regards,
Ben