Ripper Victim?

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

That's OK, CLK.
We're all entitled to that on occasion and threads like these doesn't help.

All the best

[Shelley]

I thought her wound count was 9 stabs to the throat,17 to the breasts(Im assuming that is the wounds inflicted to lungs and heart and 9 other stabs to breasts) and 13 to the abdomen(5 in liver, 2 in spleen and 6 in stomach). The wound must have been inflicted to her vagina since keleene says the vagina was targeted. I thought we were dealing with 39 stabs and 1 wound. I am assuming the wound was not a like stab wound or he would have said 40 stabs.

CLK,
If the count of wounds to the right lung & left lung along with the heart is to be included in stabs to the breasts, it's a total of 8 stabs, not 17 stabs. Dr Killeen does specifically state the vagina area.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

The big problem with Killeen's report is that a large number of the stabs are unspecified. the reason for this may be - possibly - that he only accounted for those that penetrated an organ, while the rest simply had penetrated fat or flesh and no specific organ.

All the best

[Shelley]

The big problem with Killeen's report is that a large number of the stabs are unspecified. the reason for this may be - possibly - that he only accounted for those that penetrated an organ, while the rest simply had penetrated fat or flesh and no specific organ.

All the best

That's right Glenn and good point to raise.

CLK,
Don't worry as Glenn has been quite right, we can all be subject to some confusion, self included.

Points in weather conditions:
On the early mornings of all three killings of Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes they were mornings that were especially cold and reminders of, more of a winter period than of a summer period, it is significant in why JTR struck.

[Sam Flynn]

The wound must have been inflicted to her vagina since keleene says the vagina was targeted.

He doesn't, CLK - the nearest we get is DS Swanson (not Killeen) who, in a summary police report of September 1888, used the phrase "private part". The surviving evidence has Killeen only mentioning a wound that penetrated the "lower part of the body". Neither Swanson nor Killeen mention "vagina" at any point.

[CLK]

My book on Jack The Ripper says he did. Honestly with eveyone saying different things no wonder I am confused. Can someone please give me a quick summary on her injurys.

[Sam Flynn]

My book on Jack The Ripper says he did.

He didn't, CLK - neither Killeen nor Swanson mentions any "cuts" either, as a matter of fact.

Tabram's wounds have already been mentioned a few times in this thread, but here goes...

"She had 39 stabs on the body" (Dr Killeen's words), of which:

9 stabs were in the neck
5 stabs were in the left lung
2 stabs were in the right lung
1 stab penetrated the heart
6 stabs penetrated the stomach
5 stabs penetrated the liver
2 stabs penetrated the spleen
1 wound penetrated an unspecified part of the lower body, and was 3" long by 1" deep

[CLK]

Thank you. I am not confused anymore. As was said before this thread does not help confusion. Im new to this and will will sort it out in my head eventually.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Thanks for the clarification, Gareth (Sam).

In addition, I can only repeat the argument that those stabs that Killeen didn't specified (while mentio0ned them as 39) most likely were not hitting any specific organs but just flesh and tissue and therefore he didn't specify them.
------------------------------------------------

CLK;

Don't think about it. Many of us have studied the case for a vast number of years and we still get confused. It comes with the territory as far as this case is concerned. Welcome to the club!

All the best

[perrymason]

Hello Folks,

It would seem that the people still suggesting.. after all these pages....that this may have been Jacks work, as a learner, poacher...whatever,... are incapable of or unwilling to accept the known data......and have ZERO evidence to provide that is required to even submit such a "guess".

I like to have a verifiable statement on record here occasionally...since its solely speculation, without any physical evidence or even formal report data that she shared the killer assumed responsible for "The Canonical Group".

Anyone like the last poster that is confused by the few so-called "experts" sticking their heads in the sand on the known evidence in this case deserves at the very least the truth that IS known.

Martha was killed with 2 weapons, one smaller than the other, having a total of 39 stabs on her person, and is not a member of the illustrious "C Group" in the opinion of THE Senior Medical Official for the Ripper cases, and one of the most Senior Investigative authorities. Its is well known on the night she was murderer that soldiers of current or retirement status could wear large bladed weapons openly on the Holiday she is killed on.

I get angrier with the smart knowledgeable people suggesting anything different, but I can understand based on the ridiculous arguments placed before them, how some people with less study of these crimes to this point might be confused by posts from "legtimate" sources that do not use the facts of the case in their determination.

Personally that was my last post on this thread...continuing to read some of the tripe that is offered here will affect my respect for the individuals responsible. And Im not looking to categorize posters negatively, or have them recognized for their outlandish arguments.. Im just asking that the rubber meets the road with these "stories"....and none that have Jack killing Martha, do.

If in over 70 pages you cannot offer one shred of viable evidence that suggests Martha was likely killed by Jack the Ripper....whats the point of another 70 pages.

Best regards.

[Shelley]

CLK,
If the count of wounds to the right lung & left lung along with the heart is to be included in stabs to the breasts, it's a total of 8 stabs, not 17 stabs. Dr Killeen does specifically state the vagina area.

Oops! I made a spelling error here, what i meant to say is:

Dr Killeen doesn't specifically state the vagina area.

Sorry CLK.......My spelling error gave a whole different view on it....Only just noticed that.

Glenn, Sam why didn't you pull me up on it?

[Ben]

It would seem that the people still suggesting.. after all these pages....that this may have been Jacks work, as a learner, poacher...whatever,... are incapable of or unwilling to accept the known data......and have ZERO evidence to provide that is required to even submit such a "guess".

Yes there is, Mike.

Loads and loads of it.

All I need to do is provide evidence aplenty from other serial cases demonstrating that serial killers do go through an exploratory, learning phase, and that the first offences of many a serial killer will bear little or no resemblence to their later ones. Then I point out that even if Tabram was a ripper victim, JTR would still be categorized as a consistent serial killer in comparison to most. Then I'd remind all and sundry that the weapon choice, timing, location, and victimonolgy are all perfectly consistent with their successors.

The majority of contemporary investigative personal were inclined to include her in the series, and they included Abberline, Anderson and Reid. To argue that Macnaghten's views carry more weight that the three of them, despite the fact that the last mentioned wasn't actively involved in the investigation at the time of the murders, is simply outlandish. Bond didn't even expressly rule out Tabram; he simply stated that the five victims whose autopsy notes he studied fell victim to the same perpetrator. He didn't include the "only" prefix as Macnaghten did.

So that's the weight of contemporary investigative clout in favour of her inclusion, coupled with the fact that no known expert in serial crime has ever argued the case for her exclusion. They know better from experience. That's more than adequate grounds for including Tabram, and if I'm to be respected less for reminding people of what ought to be Mickey Mouse stuff for anyone who has read up properly on serial crime, I almost care.

[Shelley]

My book on Jack The Ripper says he did. Honestly with eveyone saying different things no wonder I am confused. Can someone please give me a quick summary on her injurys.

CLK,
It also depends on who wrote the book you are reading.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Glenn, Sam why didn't you pull me up on it?

I didn't spot it, Shelley.
I blame my third glass of red wine.

At the moment, editing my posts takes longer than writing them.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

CLK,
It also depends on who wrote the book you are reading.

That's true and that it's why one should try to stick to the original sources (like the transcripts in the Jack the Ripper Sourcebook/Companion) rather than relying on books by individual authors.

All the best