Ripper Victim?

[Shelley]

[QUOTE]Sam Flynn{/QUOTE]

It'd be nigh-on impossible to inflict 9 stab-wounds to someone's neck, let alone 7 wounds in an "almost circular" pattern to their chest, if they were conscious and standing up, Mike.

Sam,
How can you assertain this without knowing whether the attacker came from behind and stabbed her neck first, then placing her against the wall to wound her body face to face.

Or

Giving a blow to the head, taking a hold of her turning her around, administering neck wounds from the front, placing her against a wall and administering wounds to her body face to face?

Or

A little of both mentioned above.....I hope you may get the jist.

[Sam Flynn]

How can you assertain this without knowing whether the attacker came from behind and stabbed her neck first

I'm not ascertaining anything, Shelley... just commenting on how difficult it would be to inflict a "cut-along-dotted-line" series of wounds to the neck of an upright, conscious person, followed by a crop-circle on her chest and a bull's-eye through her sternum. For one thing, she'd have made one hell of a fuss; for another, she'd likely have made a fair bit of noise in the process.

Giving a blow to the head, taking a hold of her turning her around, administering neck wounds from the front, placing her against a wall and administering wounds to her body face to face?

... tires the arms.

[Shelley]

Sam Flynn

I'm not ascertaining anything, Shelley... just commenting on how difficult it would be to inflict a "cut-along-dotted-line" series of wounds to the neck of an upright, conscious person, followed by a crop-circle on her chest and a bull's-eye through her sternum. For one thing, she'd have made one hell of a fuss; for another, she'd likely have made a fair bit of noise in the process....

Blimey! so that's how the stabs looked on her, i didn't know that, i don't have a a sketch to show the wounding on her body.........This sounds like she was used for target practice, with the descriptions above. Thanks for letting me know........were would i get a copy of these mapped out wounds on Tabram if you know, would be very much obliged by the info.
So she probably in a sense of likely, could well have been given a blow on the head first, then used for target practice. Also Sam, when women are shocked by an attack they are usually silent bcause of the shock & possibly fear as well.
She could have been semi-concious....Also if someone moves very fast you may not register properly and don't know what's hit you.

tires the arms.

It depends on the attackers height, build and ability for stamina.....That we don't know.

[Chava]

Chava,
Wait a minute, some dress uniform also included weapons display, you still get that today, you know ' The cold stream guards ' ' Trooping the colour ' and they all display swords and bayonets depending on which regiment & dress is being used. Today we have those that demostrate against war, but we still have soldiers on display with weapons, even cannons, and i have been to display's so i know from personal experience and they use them in demonstrations, in the victorian period the majority of people were proud that out soldiers went to war, so no offence in displaying weapons Chava, it's an odd statement to make, it has no place in realistic terms.

Shelley, they are trooping the colour. That is a parade. Of course they carry their ornamental swords and whatnot--although I'm pretty sure they don't carry fixed bayonets. But a couple of soldiers out on the town on their evening off wouldn't be wearing their busbies etc. And they wouldn't half have stood out if they did.

Here is a pic from The 1900 House which features the father, who was a soldier, and who was supposed to be a soldier in 1900. You have to click on 'larger image' to see properly. He is wearing non-combat uniform. Those two guardsmen would have been wearing something like that. Probably with a peaked cap. No reason why they wouldn't have been carrying knives. They probably would have been carrying knives. But no busby-wearing dressed-up soldiers were careering around the pubs of the LVP trying to impress the ladies. The ladies they were after were easily impressed: give 'em 3d and shove them up agains the wall. Soldiers were not considered to be desirable companions in those days. At least privates and non-coms weren't.

[Sam Flynn]

It depends on the attackers height, build and ability for stamina.....That we don't know.

Unless he were Darth Vader, I doubt that he'd have bothered, let alone have been capable of, holding her up to inflict that number of wounds.

[Brenda]

Unless he were Darth Vader, I doubt that he'd have bothered, let alone have been capable of, holding her up to inflict that number of wounds.

But hey, if the Force were with him.....

(sorry, couldn't resist)

[Ben]

so i am not going by theory here, i am going by common sense & evidence from a medical Doctor.

Too bad neither of those things entitle you to your earlier assertion, which is that Tabram's killer "knew" for certain that the victim was alive when he administered all 39 of those stab wounds.

Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes all killed by a blade/knife and the MO style cutting of the throat, in all, and consistent.

Which doesn't impact remotely on the possibility of Tabram being a ripper victim, since we know that other serial killers can boast two or three "consistent" attacks despite being responsible for many other murders. Please don't embarrass yourself by pretending I'm the one that is "confused as regarding MO". You accuse me of trying to re-write forensic terminology, while inventing your own muddled construct "MO Style" and trying to pass it off as an accepted definition. There is MO and signature, not "MO style".

and seems as you spout this ' serial killers are not robotic' trash

It's not trash, you silly moocow.

It's true. They are not robotic.

Also Ben at the same time if you undertand so much, how would it be possible for Martha to remain in an upright position as Chava has said ' Prostitutes would do it upright

I don't think it is possible to remain upright when 39 stab wounds are administered.

[Ben]

Just because supporters of Marthas inclusion cite that some serial killers drastically changed their methods and weapons.....it is equally true that some do not.

I know, Mike.

But then if JTR was responsible for the Tabram murder, he'd still be a good example of serial killer who did not "drastically changed their methods and weapons", since the change that gets us from Tabram to Nichols is emphatically not "drastic".

[Ben]

Erm.... Kurten was a minor himself when he attacked a child

Erm...no.

Kurten was an adult at the time of his vicious attack and murder of a five year old child.

However Chikatilo remained entirely in the band of child killing

No, he didn't. He killed adults too.

By the way have you checked the ' cooling off ' periods for them to all be classed as serial killers Ben?

Oh, for feck's sake. Look, Shelley, please come back when you've researched this topic properly. Arthur Shawcross not a serial killer?

[Shelley]

Unless he were Darth Vader, I doubt that he'd have bothered, let alone have been capable of, holding her up to inflict that number of wounds.

Sam,
Ah well if a policeman couldn't have handled Martha in one of her fits and bouts, a soldier or sailor would have no chance!

[Shelley]

Ben,
CHECK YOUR STUFF.....THIS IS A MARTHA TABRAM THREAD......

Now you are using bad language and 'NO' Some of the replies you've given is sheer rubbish, if this is your attitude then stop communicating in posts....I will not respond to you with these silly half-baked incorrect trash that you spit out, on top of which when you make incorrect statements you wave on by, if i ever make a mistake i make it known and post it.

This is a last post to you Ben, ever........I do not accept people throwing despicable name calling at me on a very personal level, it is uncalled for, also completely unacceptable.

Let me take this opportunity to say for good

Goodbye

[The Good Michael]

Looking at the tale of the two soldiers, and considering the pattern of wounds that Gareth sweetly described, one can nearly get a feel for a sort of tag team murder. One man stabbing repeatedly in drunken outrage while a soldier-buddy is holding her, only she's still breathing. Soldier 2 says, " Here. You hold her," and deals the killing blow with his own weapon, a bigger one.

Just a thought.

Mike

[Shelley]

The Good Michael,
Well, i did make an early post along the same lines...It's definatley possible,
according to Walter Dew the police at first though it was possibly a gang murder the same as Emma Smith, and the MO and signature is somewhat different from Tabram to others like Nicholls, and for anyone using other serial killers, or killer's as a comarision with Tabram and the ripper, a little reminder:

Holmes & Holmes ( Professional Criminal Psychologists):

MO: Remains similar

Signature: Does not change

Personality: Does not change

( this is regarding all killers accross the spectrum in all categories : consistency).

P.S. Consistency in patterns i take it.

Regards
Shelley

[Nothing to see]

Im sorry....is the contention now a head blow occurred but missed making the coroners headlines? Man....

She may well have been choked, but there is no evidence she was unconscious when she received her "many poke" attack. Nor lying down.

Maybe we should add a preface to most posts concerning Martha Tabram and Liz Stride in particular....."setting all evidence aside for a moment"....

I have read I believe every post on this thread, and have seen not one sound argument for her inclusion that doesn't set aside most of the recorded data and opinion.

As I mentioned before and none of the Ripper-Martha group took to heart.....not all killers "morph" like many of you suggest this one did. Just because supporters of Marthas inclusion cite that some serial killers drastically changed their methods and weapons.....it is equally true that some do not. Only 3 of the Canonical Five have the visible and logical foundations to be one mans streak....to which many suggest adding a viciously stabbed woman.

Before people start including women that were run over by horse and cart.....could we use some discretion based on known evidence?

About the only obvious way I can see that the police may have blown this investigation is by including murders that do not rationally fit...making the killer profile far less methodical and far less rational and far more diverse than perhaps required....just as some similar suggestions that are made today.

By increasing his head count by Marthas death instead of far more logically shrinking the count due to the evidence before us, pollutes the potential accurate profile to the extent that any speculation based on that can never reasonably produce any viable answers as to who, why, how and what happened to him.

I cant tell anyone what to think,...I can only extrapolate on what happens when they do think things without supporting evidence.

Martha was stabbed to death with 2 weapons being used on a night when it is clear many men were wearing 2 bladed weapons, large and small, openly. How that gets set aside by some baffles me....but it is a free opinion board.

Best regards all.

Hi. That's a really sensible view of Tabram's murder. It's what I think happened. And I think 2 men. Probably soldiers. I think that makes sense. They were stab wounds in her, not Jack's ripping and tearing. I don't know if she was unconscious when the stabbing began but if she was and you wanted her as one of Jack's gets then was she strangled or hit on the head?
Because if she was hit on the head or her head has whacked against a wall, whatever, that's not Jack's MO.

I wonder if Jack knew, before he began, whether strangulation would stop the heart beating or whether he found that out during Nicholl's murder?

[RJM]

the MO and signature is somewhat different from Tabram to others like Nicholls, and for anyone using other serial killers, or killer's as a comarision with Tabram and the ripper, a little reminder:

Holmes & Holmes ( Professional Criminal Psychologists):

MO: Remains similar

Signature: Does not change

Personality: Does not change

( this is regarding all killers accross the spectrum in all categories : consistency).

P.S. Consistency in patterns i take it.

Regards
Shelley

Could you give me a citation for Holmes and Holmes please.

All my sources disagree with the MO remaining similar. Keppel and Bimes in The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations state that MO often changes (see Bundy, Kurten, the Zodiac etc.) and that often "MO profiling not only doesn't work, but can wear investigators down by setting them along the wrong paths." Also backed up by Whoever Fights Monsters: My Twenty Years Tracking Serial Killers for the F.B.I. by Robert K. Ressler and Thomas Schachtman.

John Douglas and Mark Olshaker in The Cases that Haunt Us have this to say about the Tabram murder: "I would also not discount the possibility that the killer of Polly Nichols was actually attempting to copycat the murder of Martha Tabram."

I'm not always a believer in criminal psychologists and profilers, but what I've read over the years fully supports the possibility that Tabram was a victim of the Whitechapel murderer.

Robert