Ripper Victim?

[Shelley]

Ben;

Not just children, Mike. Bundy, Shawcross, Kurten, Rader and Chikatilo all killed children as well as adults, and they didn't all "have persona's that allow them access to them". The last mentioned mutilated and eviscerated some, but not others. JTR at least domonstrated much more consistency in terms of location and victim-type.

Best regards,
Ben

I have to stop you there Ben,

Erm.... Kurten was a minor himself when he attacked a child ( There are Killers who are children themselves, any recall of ' Mary Bell ' by any chance?) Ted Bundy, i don't recall any children as his victims, however it wouldn't surprise me as he was a psychopath. Shawcross yes, he was a psychopath too. However Chikatilo remained entirely in the band of child killing but i didn't see him labelled a psychopath. By the way have you checked the ' cooling off ' periods for them to all be classed as serial killers Ben?

[Jon Guy]

For Martha To show no defence wounds when an attack began on her, how is this possible? Oh and don't forget Dr Killeen is quite right in that she was still alive when the stabbings happened to her.

Hi Shelley

Considering the above I have always felt that Tabram was unconscious throughout her ordeal due the bang on the back of her head.

[Shelley]

Hi Shelley

Considering the above I have always felt that Tabram was unconscious throughout her ordeal due the bang on the back of her head.

Hi Jon,
I asked where the bang was on her head, and Fisherman said he didn't know...So i gather that hasn't been recorded, but if it wasn't a bang on her head that rendered her unconcious, there is something else to explain, no defense wounds, and postion she was left in by ' open & powerless ' and positioned in also what has been described as spread-eagled, for the lower half of her body.

[Tom_Wescott]

Because Fisherman doesn't know that means it hasn't been recorded? Wow, you GO, Fishstix!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jon Guy]

An effusion of blood is when the blood escapes into the surrounding tissues, so if she was found lying on her back the blood would have been at the back of her head, due to gravity. My guess is her head was banged against a wall or the floor. Hopefully, if I`m wrong someone will correct my theory.

[Sam Flynn]

Considering the above I have always felt that Tabram was unconscious throughout her ordeal due the bang on the back of her head.

Eminently feasible, JG.

[Shelley]

Because Fisherman doesn't know that means it hasn't been recorded? Wow, you GO, Fishstix!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,
I would have thought that Fisherman knowing that some bleeding between the skull and brain somewhere, he would have also come accross a recording of it, and with that it would have mentioned where abouts a blow on the head with it.

[Shelley]

An effusion of blood is when the blood escapes into the surrounding tissues, so if she was found lying on her back the blood would have been at the back of her head, due to gravity. My guess is her head was banged against a wall or the floor. Hopefully, if I`m wrong someone will correct my theory.

Hi Jon,
You mean a sort of ' Lividity ' ?

[Jon Guy]

You mean a sort of ' Lividity ' ?

Yes, thats the word, Shelley, if I`m correct.

[Shelley]

Lividity is after death has occurred, though. It's reasonable to assume that with a blow to the head ' unconciousness ' could have occurred, but don't know if it really was.

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/rigor-mortis-and-lividity.html

Oops, Chikatilo's victims were also women, not just children. However, Arthur Shawcross was not a serial killer, and Ted Bundy started as a spree killer before he also became a serial killer.

[Shelley]

Questions answered with questions

Ben,
Looking at the last few posts going back more than a page, you have not answered any of the questions i have left as quotations to statements you've made. You have left a continuation of not answering my questions to your statements, you have then proceeded to make posts later and only questioned what i have made comment on in refuting your statements. I for one am not going to go around in circles like this, you either explain yourself or at least come up with correct quotations. I will not make an answer to side with your confused conception, in the face of evidence or that of professional books written by qualified people. So i will not be obliged in giving you any answers, or sharing any information, i think that is fair.

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"Because Fisherman doesn't know that means it hasn't been recorded? Wow, you GO, Fishstix!"

Fame, Tom, finally - how I´ve longed for that recognition! Actually, I have never seen any exact placing of that head-blow. Maybe you could help us out??

Humbly,
Fisherman

[perrymason]

Im sorry....is the contention now a head blow occurred but missed making the coroners headlines? Man....

She may well have been choked, but there is no evidence she was unconscious when she received her "many poke" attack. Nor lying down.

Maybe we should add a preface to most posts concerning Martha Tabram and Liz Stride in particular....."setting all evidence aside for a moment"....

I have read I believe every post on this thread, and have seen not one sound argument for her inclusion that doesn't set aside most of the recorded data and opinion.

As I mentioned before and none of the Ripper-Martha group took to heart.....not all killers "morph" like many of you suggest this one did. Just because supporters of Marthas inclusion cite that some serial killers drastically changed their methods and weapons.....it is equally true that some do not. Only 3 of the Canonical Five have the visible and logical foundations to be one mans streak....to which many suggest adding a viciously stabbed woman.

Before people start including women that were run over by horse and cart.....could we use some discretion based on known evidence?

About the only obvious way I can see that the police may have blown this investigation is by including murders that do not rationally fit...making the killer profile far less methodical and far less rational and far more diverse than perhaps required....just as some similar suggestions that are made today.

By increasing his head count by Marthas death instead of far more logically shrinking the count due to the evidence before us, pollutes the potential accurate profile to the extent that any speculation based on that can never reasonably produce any viable answers as to who, why, how and what happened to him.

I cant tell anyone what to think,...I can only extrapolate on what happens when they do think things without supporting evidence.

Martha was stabbed to death with 2 weapons being used on a night when it is clear many men were wearing 2 bladed weapons, large and small, openly. How that gets set aside by some baffles me....but it is a free opinion board.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

She may well have been choked, but there is no evidence she was unconscious when she received her "many poke" attack. Nor lying down.

It'd be nigh-on impossible to inflict 9 stab-wounds to someone's neck, let alone 7 wounds in an "almost circular" pattern to their chest, if they were conscious and standing up, Mike.

[Shelley]

Holmes & Holmes ( criminal psychologists):

MO: will remain similar

Signature: Will not change

Personality: personality of the offender will not change.


Above is the professionals view to criminal offenders and it runs through all offenders categories, throughout time from the birth of criminal psychology, to as we know it also today.