Ripper Victim?

[Shelley]

Well, digging my notes out that i kept, most of the wounds and 21 of them to be exact where in the upper body as follows:

Tabram estimated time of death 3.30am examined by Dr Timothy Robert Killeen at 5.30am....39 stabs to the body,
5 stabs to the left lung
2 stabs to the right lung
1 stab to the heart
5 stabs to the liver
2 stabs to the spleen
6 stabs to the stomach
Principle targets breasts, belly & private parts. All stabs could have been caused by an ordinary pen-knife, but 1 on the sternum(breastbone) would have been made by a dagger or sword bayonet.


It's possible then that all wounds could have been caused by a dagger type weapon.
So Dr Killeen said a dagger or sword bayonet.
The position of the heart in the body is nestled right in between the left & right lung, the stomach is right next door to the liver & the sleen is hiding a bit just behind the stomach, however some of the spleen shows in the biology book to be right next to the stomach. All close to one another, so bound to be hit by the assailant with the blade, who ever stabbed the lungs, my guess is they hit the heart as well, but the heart is going to be a tough muscled organ.

[Shelley]

Shelley writes:

"Some women who have been raped without a blow to the head of any kind have been frozen and silent because of fear and shock of the rape"

Not impossible, I guess - but this was not a frail, delicate woman; it was a streetwise prostitute, who would in all probability have suffered violence before, and who would have had an agenda to fight back, if you want my meaning.

The best,
Fisherman

Even though Tabram was a streetwise woman, she will still have a shock in recieving such a ferocious attack, i guess she didn't experience that everyday, so being human she will still be shocked and with that emotion everything starts working in the body differently, and it is shock specifically that stops women from crying out or screaming. If Tabram being a streetwise woman was manipulative, and i think to a degree she must have been, had she not been shocked she would be the first type to have yelled and scream ' Murder '.
It's a shame that Killeen didn't specifically mention whereabouts she had a blow to the head, as it would have been interesting to know whether she recieved a blow on the back of the head, or the side or front.
But thanks for the answer Fisherman....or Christer.
Shelley

[Sam Flynn]

His impulsive focus or his deliberate focus, Gareth?

A wound 3" long and 1" deep is practically a scratch - if inflicted with a knife whose width was 1" or more, Fish. If it were 8" long and 2.5" deep along its entire length that would be a different matter. That apart, it's notable that the longest wound on Martha Tabram's lower body was significantly shorter, and significantly less deep, than the wounds inflicted on most of the Ripper victims' necks.

This is true even if we assume that the Tabram's longest wound was a cut, and not a casual stab that had entered at an oblique angle into the body. Such a stab would "wipe its feet" as it went in, leaving a three-inch "skidmark" behind. Killeen, after all, did say that she was "penetrated" in the lower portion of the body - he did not say she was "cut" there - so on balance it sounds like a stab wound to me. If so, it was in good company - for there were 38 other stabs elsewhere, the majority focused around the throat, chest and the upper reaches of her abdomen.

Ooops! I've done it, haven't I? Groundhog - back in your hutch!

[Jon Guy]

Hello

Did not Polly Nichols only have a couple of stab wounds to her privates?

[Fisherman]

Sam writes:

"Ooops! I've done it, haven't I?"

You have, Sam! But I´ll let you off the hook for now, since I´m going to sleep. I will just point out to you that each of the cuts that opened Nicholls, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly up, were around 3x1 inches AT SOME STAGE. If our man was interrupted - and I think he was, having to abort his mission - then that may be the explanation. Another such explanation may lie in hesitation on his behalf, if this was the first time he ever put his knife to a womans abdomen.

All the best, and a good night´s sleep to you!
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

I will just point out to you that each of the cuts that opened Nicholls, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly up, were around 3x1 inches AT SOME STAGE.

Surely you can't mean...?

If our man was interrupted

... aaaarrrrrrghhh, you did!

A different groundhog, of the type usually found sniffing around Dutfield's Yard

[Shelley]

Knifes

Sam,

I would have thought there were many knives available and used that could produce the same inches of wounding, but a jagged knife edge to cut bone is a little different from some commonly used for protection and gangs in the area, i would have thought that even a ' Hunters ' knife could have a jagged edge as well as a smooth edge on the other side, also availble, perhaps not that uncommon, but knives with one smooth edge in more use. Nicholls had a jagged type cut on her body, and looking again at Eddowes face the jaw area just under her bottom lip, the cut there seems to be jagged. Even a 6" or 9" hunters knife could be available to the public couldn't it?

[Chava]

The point about panic and surprise taking away the ability to scream is a good one. That's why I've never believed in the 'oh murder!' cry in the Kelly killing. But panic would not, I believe, take away a victim's ability to struggle unless said victim was overwhelmed with massive force. Which of course was the case in the other killings and may well have been the case here.

Still left with no explanation for the display, though... Someone who does that is not your ordinary killer. If he was enraged because Tabram said or did something to set him off, he would grab his knife and start cutting. But lifting the skirts? Laying out the body? That's a whole 'nother game, right there.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Chava,

Still left with no explanation for the display, though... Someone who does that is not your ordinary killer.

Someone who "connects" with a prostitute on a landing - or a prostitute who prepares herself for "connexion", assuming no congress takes place - is bound to result in a fairly standard configuration of the prostitute's body, and her skirt. Equally, not every nutter who lifts a skirt to jab at the "lower portion of the body" is going to be Jack the Ripper - that's assuming that the wound in question was inflicted on bare flesh, of course. Unfortunately we have no way of knowing that this was the case, or whether the 3" long wound was inflicted through her clothes - say, by a jab to the side in the pelvic region.

[Shelley]

A lot of soldiers are drawn to the service because they want to serve king or Queen and country, they are also considered by family members, friends and other social connections such as aquantainces and neighbours, also neighbourhood strangers as ' Heros ' it gives some the sense of prestige, an honour or brave man fighting for freedom of terrorism and the politic hype of the enemy. Soldiers are brainwashed and trained for fighting. Ok, in modern terms as well there are the type office typical soldier that has never fought on a battle front, many are honest and good men. However you get the band that are sadistic and the opportunity gives them to fight in a sadistic way. Ok, not all sadists are psychopaths, but psychopaths are also drawn to becoming a soldier, it feeds thier need for killing. Psychopathy comes in different levels and not all psychopaths kill, infact one forensic criminologist spoke of them being the more ' Human Killer ', they are methodical in thier ways to eliminate, but they can be controlled in thier passion to kill. Freud the father of ' Psychoanalyisis ' was an early Victorian psychiatrist and a psychopath. Psychopaths driven motivation is ' Power ', we find psychopaths in Politics, religious leaders ' Brigham Young ' was a psychopath, Emperor Constantine was a psychopath, you can find your psychopath always in a position of power, but not all those in power are indeed psychopaths. Apart from power, generally the others that follow are sex & death. The psychopathic killer is usually almost obbessed with sex & death. Psychopaths are the ' Warriors ' ,even though they are impulsive it is generally impulsiveness with drug use and sex, those that are in the same band as Ted Bundy enjoy torture.
Soldiers that are psychopaths love thier kill, they will rape torture and kill thier tortured and raped victim. For them sex is not exactly sex, it is ' power of the victim ' unless they have a wife ( they expect them to be virgins and for thier sole use only, if she falters god help her if he's a killer ' Idi Amin ' what he did to his wife was unspeakable, IDi Amin was indeed a psychopath).
However, psychopaths even though they lack empathy to a large extent are not completely devoid of human emotion, they do suffer when they go through divorces, they can feel a little remorse because they realise the damage thier personality causes to thier family and friends, however they do not suffer with depression or anxiety whilst they are active and lead a dangerous & risky life, however as they get older all that risk & dangerous lifestyle they have encumbered on themselves they ' Burn out ' literally.

[perrymason]

Hi all,

To use the vernacular that most of you cross the ponders would recognize...this thread is a real "cracker". Some really great points being made.... and some that kinda suck too.

In the opinion of the vast majority of contemporary investigators, was she a likely Canonical?N

In the opinion of the coroner, were 2 distinct and different wounds likely caused by 2 different instruments?Y

Now that were back at square one, being she was categorized as being outside the Canonical Group by men who examined her and the notes have a handwritten sidebar that mentions a "bayonet" specifically....why again is a woman who was stabbed continuously for many seconds with 2 instruments like a woman who has been quietly laid down so her throat can be cut and her abdomen opened to sometimes offer the killer take out...using the same knife?

This problem is quite like the problem with Liz Stride,...theres absolutely no evidence that Jack the Ripper killed Martha Tabram,...and she was likely killed by 2 separate weapons, very much like 2 of the weapons that might have been on a soldier trick seen with her earlier. Theres no evidence that Jack made the cut in Dutfields Yard either, and we have an assault on her on the books feet and minutes from her death site, by a man hardly an "elusive" killer... if guilty of her murder.

Jack the Ripper.....not Whitechapel murderers...but Jack the Ripper...the real one.... silently sets women on the ground before using his knife....he slits the throats to kill his victims, then he lifts, cuts or pushes up their skirts to their breastbone so he can open their stomachs, 2 out of three times taking organs from that region.

Thats not some randomly chosen pattern he just happens to like for now...its his apparent choice for what I believe are 3 consecutive victims, spaced some 5 weeks apart. Its specific....its repeated....its consistent if re-categorizing the Canon based on evidence rather than opinion...and it happens outdoors.

I would accept Alice McKenzie before Martha Tabram actually, if a choice were given. Alice's death matches the signature moves.

Best regards all.

[Chava]

Hi Michael! I wouldn't accept Alice over Tabram. I wouldn't accept any of the others over Tabram.

Gareth, prostitutes in those days tended to do the deed standing up against the wall. Hence the slang-word 'knee-trembler'. And even if she laid down, your supposition is that she just kind of assumed the corpse pose and let her killer turn it into reality. You may argue this--hell, you will definitely argue this--but she was displayed and there is no explanation for it. I understand that she wasn't killed the same way as the others. But I don't understand why we aren't taking this killing more seriously. To me, it's as fascinating as the Kelly killing. Both are somewhat ambiguous. Both could have been committed by other killers than the Ripper. One may begin the series. One may end it. Whether or not she is a Ripper victim, I believe we should examine this killing very closely. Because try as you might, believe what you may believe, we cannot rule this one out. Unlike the others, it takes place within the right time frame. There is a 3-week gap between this killing and Nicholls, just as there is a 3-week gap between Chapman and the DE. Tabram's killing could well be coincidental to the others. But if it isn't, it's the first kill and if that's the case, could tell us a lot. I don't think it's worth arguing the toss over who is right and who is wrong. But I'll start a thread that works from the supposition that Tabram was a Ripper victim, and those who think she was might go on over to discuss the case from that standpoint.

[perrymason]

Hey Chava,

Get ready for some local weather tomorrow chum.

I think theres a method you can use to have an investigative barometer available......take the press and police quotes as they came out, not all at once.

He was the Whitechapel Murderer when Martha was added to list of unfortunate women murdered that year. He remained that until Annie Chapman.....Polly was just the next victim at that point. But after Annie, and the observed similarities with now 2 consecutive similar murders, he was Leather Apron. Until Oct 2 I believe, when he publicly becomes a pen name from the Dear Boss letter. Each "suspect" is assessed differently.....first by Emmas death, its the local gang threats....then when Martha dies we have a vicious madman. When Annie dies.....only Polly looks quite similar. So "the group" as we know it is taking shape. After what they thought with two murders in one night and one having undeniable similarity to just 2 earlier deaths, they become baffled. When Mary dies....the killer is obviously violently insane....because they lost him....his real likely profile, by reacting to the next death in line ...regardless of any differences noted, as a new iteration of his killing persona.

The previous post is what I believe the real Ripper did... based only on what happened between he and his victims.

Cheers Chava.


edited to add....I believe the police added the murders onto one another, rather than standing back from each one....and I cant say with the likely local sentiments against them, the long hours, the dictator-like Warren, they had pressures we will never really grasp, that I blame them one bit. They did what they needed to...I would think they needed some space to investigate without reporters. Imagine if after Mary they announced they now believed all 5 Canonicals or perhaps only some were by different hands...riots anyone? The public would forgive them if they were chasing someone like his press profile....a single lone madman, cunning and cruel. Not easy to catch that kind of guy.

[Ben]

In the opinion of the vast majority of contemporary investigators, was she a likely Canonical?N

Sorry, Mike.

Not true.

The majority of contemporary investigators included her, rather than excluded her. Macnaghten being in the minority.

There's plenty of evidence that Tabram was killed by the same perpetrator that was responsible for the others from a criminalogical perspective, which is why no expert in criminology has ever advocated ruling her out. Quite the reverse. The type of acute robotic specificity of MO and signature that too many people are envisaging here would be incredibly rare in comaprison to the vast majority of serial killers, and really doesn't relate very well to the real world of serial crime. The majority of serial kilers are as capable of "consistency" as they are of diversity, and ruling out all but the most consistent murders in any one serial will usual mean ruling out the majority of that serial killer's crimes.

The observation about the weapon type was in fact "a dagger or bayonet".

Best regards,
Ben

[perrymason]

Hey Ben,

Although many confided to press or colleagues that they felt Martha might be a Ripper victim, it wasnt enough to dissuade senior investigative and medical personnel. There are 5 victims that should be grouped by their opinion. The weapons including bayonet are signifigantly different weapons anyway you slice the terminology. One made pen knife type cuts, and a single stab was markedly larger and deeper than all the others.

And when you compare relatively mechanical stabbing to excising an organ intact...were not in the same league at all Ben.

Yeah....I know with a thousand years and a thousand chimps on word processors wed get Shakespeare eventually, but in terms of his 3 week evolution, how many intermediate steps does he publicly take between Martha and Mary Ann? None..He is "crawling" when killing Martha..but he has the strength and agility of a "runner" with Polly..when did he "walk"?

Ciao for tonight Ben, any rebuttal I get back to ya...cheers Mate.