Ripper Victim?

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Thanks Tom. I needed someone to agree with me for a change.

All the best

[Christine]

I assumed that he was trying to reach the heart (through the left breast), but as she continued to struggle he tried other areas, like the lungs (hitting the rib bones) and then tried some of the soft places in the abdomen.

In other words, based on the information we have, I don't see any obvious focus on breasts and sex organs that isn't consistent with trying to kill someone (who was already lying on her back with her skirts up) with a pen knife.

[Fisherman]

Shelley wants to know:

"Is Christer a nick name you have, or something like that?"

No. It´s my Christian name. Appropriately enough, seeing as I´m a Swede, it´s a Swedish name.

The best,
Fisherman

[Chava]

I agree with Glenn. I would be amazed to find someone stabbed 39 times and NOT see most of the wounds concentrated in the torso region. It doesn't appear that her sex organs were at all targeted specifically.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Just reporting Dr Kelleen on this board in the Possible Victims section:

According to Killeen, the focus of the wounds were the breasts, belly, and groin area. In his opinion, all but one of the wounds were inflicted by a right-handed attacker,

In any case, now I come to think of it, that layout of the body is what is making me think 'allo. Wounds hitting everywhere, ok. Not struggling because knocked on the head, whatever. But I cannot readily explain body placement.

[Fisherman]

Chava writes:

"Thanks for the info re the blow on the head!

But that still doesn't explain what looks suspiciously like a posed body to me."

It doesn´t, Chava. But to my mind, the explanation for this is that she suffered a blow on the head in company of her stabber, he fled the scene, and Jack took advantage of it all. Meaning that he did the honors with the "posing" and the skirtlifting.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Chava,

The wounds, according to Killeen, were concentrated on the breasts, groin and abdomen. So this would appear to be somewhat sexually motivated, since a complete frenzy would produce wounds over a larger area.

It might well have been a frenzy, but whether it was or wasn't, the wounds were certainly concentrated on the upper half of the body. There were 9 stab-wounds in the neck alone, 5 wounds in the left lung, 2 in the right right lung, 1 to the heart, 5 in the liver, 2 in the spleen and 6 in the stomach (and by "stomach", it's clear that Killeen meant the organ, rather than the "belly" or abdomen in general). Add those up, and you have a grand total of 30 wounds in the upper body - leaving a maximum of 9 that might have been inflicted elsewhere. However, only one of which was in the "lower portion of the body", which is usually taken to mean "somewhere around the groin".

That means, in short, that at least 30 stabs were inflicted to the upper half of the body - specifically, the stomach (organ) and upwards, with 9 of those in the neck. One wound was inflicted to "the lower portion of the body". That leaves 8 wounds whose location was not specified - but they weren't inflicted on the (external) sexual organs, that's for sure. In fact, Dr Killeen quite specifically stated that "the lower portion of the body was penetrated in ONE place... that wound being 3 inches in length and one in depth".

[Fisherman]

Shelley writes:

"Some women who have been raped without a blow to the head of any kind have been frozen and silent because of fear and shock of the rape"

Not impossible, I guess - but this was not a frail, delicate woman; it was a streetwise prostitute, who would in all probability have suffered violence before, and who would have had an agenda to fight back, if you want my meaning.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Shelley asks:

"Where abouts did Martha recieve the blow on her head?"

Killeen does not tell us; he simply states that there was such an effusion, but does not go on to give the exact location.

The best,
Fisherman

[Chava]

The lifting of the skirts suggests contempt for the victim as does the parted legs. I'm not sure about Nicholls, but Chapman's skirt was lifted, as was Eddowes', and their legs were splayed wide too. I'll bet, if he'd had the time, we would have found Stride with her legs apart and her skirt lifted as well.

[Fisherman]

Sam writes:

"That means, in short, that at least 30 stabs were inflicted to the upper half of the body - specifically, the stomach (organ) and upwards, with 9 of those in the neck. One wound was inflicted to "the lower portion of the body". That leaves 8 wounds whose location was not specified - but they weren't inflicted on the (external) sexual organs, that's for sure. In fact, Dr Killeen quite specifically stated that "the lower portion of the body was penetrated in ONE place... that wound being 3 inches in length and one in depth".

EXACTLY so, Sam; spot on! And that weighs in quite impressively on my scales when I try to understand the reason that there WAS one wound to the lower body, and that this wound - and this wound only! - was seemingly a cut.
If there had been a flurry of stabs close to that wound, it would have been easier to speculate that it could have been a stab gone wrong, skidding against bone structure or something - but if he was stabbing away only at the upper body, then he must have been positioned so as to be able to do this comfortably. Then why does he suddenly change his focus - and perhaps his stance - to deliver one single stab to the lower body? And why, oh why, does that stab - and no other stab - go wrong, producing a cut?
Food for thought, wouldn´t you say, Sam?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Chava writes:

"I'm not sure about Nicholls, but Chapman's skirt was lifted, as was Eddowes', and their legs were splayed wide too. I'll bet, if he'd had the time, we would have found Stride with her legs apart and her skirt lifted as well."

We know, Chava, that Paul and Cross added a little dececy to the state of Nicholls clothes, so that is a given.
Stride, however - nah. Her killer never intented to lift her skirts if you ask me...!

All the best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Sam writes: "That means, that at least 30 stabs were inflicted to the upper half of the body... Killeen quite specifically stated that "the lower portion of the body was penetrated in ONE place... that wound being 3 inches in length and one in depth".

EXACTLY so, Sam; spot on! And that weighs in quite impressively on my scales when I try to understand the reason that there WAS one wound to the lower body, and that this wound was seemingly a cut.

Cut or not, Fish, it's crystal-clear that the killer's focus was emphatically NOT on the area around the external genitalia.

I recall that we've had a bit of banter previously as to whether it was a cut or not, Fish, so I'll avoid that particular groundhog moment, if you don't mind! For the moment, anyway

[FrankO]

One thing occurs to me: how did he keep this attack quiet? He doesn't kill her immediately in the way that the Ripper did.

Hi Chava,

I can very well imagine that stabbing her in the throat a number of times helped. That would quite probably have kept her from screaming at least. And one newspaper, the Illustrated Police News, said that she was throttled, which would obviously help to both silence her and end a struggle before it could well begin.

As to the position of the body, arms & legs, I don't think we should read too much into that either way. Maybe the attack was too sudden, quick and ferocious for to react, maybe he (partly) 'posed' her like that.

All the best,
Frank

[FrankO]

Cut or not, Fish, it's crystal-clear that the killer's focus was emphatically NOT on the area around the external genitalia.

His impulsive focus or his deliberate focus, Gareth?

[Fisherman]

Sam writes:

"I recall that we've had a bit of banter previously as to whether it was a cut or not, Fish, so I'll avoid that particular groundhog moment, if you don't mind! For the moment, anyway"

Fine by me, Sam! And I really don´t think we are going to be able to establish either cut or stab technically. But I do think I have a lot working for me, given the circumstances outlined in your post.

All the best, Sam!
Fisherman