Ripper Victim?

[Chava]

The wounds, according to Killeen, were concentrated on the breasts, groin and abdomen. So this would appear to be somewhat sexually motivated, since a complete frenzy would produce wounds over a larger area.

One thing occurs to me: how did he keep this attack quiet? He doesn't kill her immediately in the way that the Ripper did. Even a direct stab to the heart wouldn't drop her silently. And if she was killed in a sudden and frenzied attack, how come she was lying with her hands by her side and her legs open as if she had recently had sexual intercourse? There is no evidence that she was chloroformed or anything of that nature. And a frenzied attack would produce a struggle. So I am forced to consider that she was posed after death. Which doesn't suggest to me a killer who has personal animus, kills for a reason and then moves on.

[Fisherman]

Shelley asks:

"can anyone elaborate on this a bit?"

Try the dissertation "Old wounds" by Tom Wescott here on Casebook, Shelley.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Chava asks:

"One thing occurs to me: how did he keep this attack quiet? He doesn't kill her immediately in the way that the Ripper did. Even a direct stab to the heart wouldn't drop her silently. And if she was killed in a sudden and frenzied attack, how come she was lying with her hands by her side and her legs open as if she had recently had sexual intercourse? There is no evidence that she was chloroformed or anything of that nature."

There was an effusion of blood between skullbone and scalp, Chava. And that points to Tabram receiving a blow on the head at some stage, which could well be the reason for the silence. Whether it was a dealt blow or something that came about as the result of her fall is anybodys guess.
As for the wound to her chest, my guess is that it did not come first - it came last. Killeen asserts us that Tabram lived through the stabbing, and one of the signs he will have used to establish that is the bloodflow from the wounds. The thrust through the sternum would have killed her instantly, more or less.

The best,
Fisherman

[protohistorian]

Chava asks:

"One thing occurs to me: how did he keep this attack quiet? He doesn't kill her immediately in the way that the Ripper did. Even a direct stab to the heart wouldn't drop her silently. And if she was killed in a sudden and frenzied attack, how come she was lying with her hands by her side and her legs open as if she had recently had sexual intercourse? There is no evidence that she was chloroformed or anything of that nature."

There was an effusion of blood between skullbone and scalp, Chava. And that points to Tabram receiving a blow on the head at some stage, which could well be the reason for the silence. Whether it was a dealt blow or something that came about as the result of her fall is anybodys guess.
As for the wound to her chest, my guess is that it did not come first - it came last. Killeen asserts us that Tabram lived through the stabbing, and one of the signs he will have used to establish that is the bloodflow from the wounds. The thrust through the sternum would have killed her instantly, more or less.

The best,
Fisherman

chloroform would not have been looked for, given the commonality of respiratory infections, would be difficult to diagnose. Another aspect we should keep in mind,is that victorian brick buildings were several courses of brick deep, the had de facto soundproofing. Live Strong Dave

[Fisherman]

Dave!

Though a house in them days would be less prone to let sound through it´s walls, they were far from soundproof. Francis Hewitt testified that he and his wife had heard no noise or sound, and this was considered remarkable. And the press reports stated that "the police authorities regard as little short of marvellous the fact that no dweller in this model block heard any disturbance".

Please note that the sound could travel through the doors too, and not only the walls.

No matter what, since we have that effusion of blood, maybe we don´t have to strain ourselves looking for other explanations for the silence!

The best,
Fisherman

[Shelley]

Shelley asks:

"can anyone elaborate on this a bit?"

Try the dissertation "Old wounds" by Tom Wescott here on Casebook, Shelley.

The best,
Fisherman

Thanks Fisherman.....Is Christer a nick name you have, or something like that?

Regards
Shelley

[Chava]

Thanks for the info re the blow on the head!

But that still doesn't explain what looks suspiciously like a posed body to me.

[Shelley]

The wounds, according to Killeen, were concentrated on the breasts, groin and abdomen. So this would appear to be somewhat sexually motivated, since a complete frenzy would produce wounds over a larger area.

One thing occurs to me: how did he keep this attack quiet? He doesn't kill her immediately in the way that the Ripper did. Even a direct stab to the heart wouldn't drop her silently. And if she was killed in a sudden and frenzied attack, how come she was lying with her hands by her side and her legs open as if she had recently had sexual intercourse? There is no evidence that she was chloroformed or anything of that nature. And a frenzied attack would produce a struggle. So I am forced to consider that she was posed after death. Which doesn't suggest to me a killer who has personal animus, kills for a reason and then moves on.

Chava,
It could be that she was just moved like that, into that position, although with arms at sides is ' Theoretically a ' open and powerless position ' as regrds to arms or hands on the body in theory ' Defense position ' . My guess is it happend too quick, she was largely unaware what her attacker was doing to her, adrenalin kicks in to stop pain, shock & fear either or both can render the woman silent. So no cry or screams or sound of any kind and breathing is also different, it becomes slower after administered attack.
And yes, sexually motivated it appears so, but more upper injuries rather than lower injuries indicate just aggression, as anyone can hit the breasts for instance.

[Shelley]

Chava asks:

"One thing occurs to me: how did he keep this attack quiet? He doesn't kill her immediately in the way that the Ripper did. Even a direct stab to the heart wouldn't drop her silently. And if she was killed in a sudden and frenzied attack, how come she was lying with her hands by her side and her legs open as if she had recently had sexual intercourse? There is no evidence that she was chloroformed or anything of that nature."

There was an effusion of blood between skullbone and scalp, Chava. And that points to Tabram receiving a blow on the head at some stage, which could well be the reason for the silence. Whether it was a dealt blow or something that came about as the result of her fall is anybodys guess.
As for the wound to her chest, my guess is that it did not come first - it came last. Killeen asserts us that Tabram lived through the stabbing, and one of the signs he will have used to establish that is the bloodflow from the wounds. The thrust through the sternum would have killed her instantly, more or less.

The best,
Fisherman

Fisherman,
Some women who have been raped without a blow to the head of any kind have been frozen and silent because of fear and shock of the rape.

[Brenda]

Believe me, when you are attacked, your only thought is "live through this, somehow, live through this."

[Chava]

Brenda, I hope that comment is not from personal experience

Whether a woman freezes or not, it's unlikely that she would fall to the ground in what sounds like a yoga 'corpse position'. She had to have been placed. And placement=display. Otherwise he'd knock her on the head, kill her, then disappear asap without worrying what she looked like.

[Shelley]

Believe me, when you are attacked, your only thought is "live through this, somehow, live through this."

That's correct Brenda, human primary functions are to survive.....unless you are psychopathic, autistic, or suicidal.

[Shelley]

Fisherman,

Where abouts did Martha recieve the blow on her head?

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

The wounds, according to Killeen, were concentrated on the breasts, groin and abdomen. So this would appear to be somewhat sexually motivated, since a complete frenzy would produce wounds over a larger area.

No, that's wrong, and another strange claim. I have seen numerous multiple stabbing murders (and all of them have been a result of frenzy) and the breast/abdomin area is actually the most common target areas in such cases.
I have no idea where people has gotten this strange idea that a frenzied murder has to involve stabbing all over the body - the chest and abdomin arera are the places that are largest and the easiest to attack (especially since they also contain rather soft tissue) compared to more difficult ones like legs and arms.
The chest and groin area are EXACTLY the areas I would expect to be targeted.

All the best

[Tom_Wescott]

I agree with Glenn. I would be amazed to find someone stabbed 39 times and NOT see most of the wounds concentrated in the torso region. It doesn't appear that her sex organs were at all targeted specifically.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott