Ripper Victim?

[Chava]

And Chava, you make the mistake of many by citing victim similarities among the Canonic Five. That is an error because it presumes that Polly, Annie, etc., were somehow different from the bulk of the vagrant casual prostitutes, when in fact they were quite typical. The loding houses were filled with such women and anyone with an itch to kill and mutilate women would find any of them easy prey.

However, Supe, they were not the only women in doss and lodging houses at the time. Forgive me, but I think you are also making a common mistake. If you look at the great mass of women living in indigent circumstances in the East End, you would expect to see a great many middle-aged, hard-drinking, available-for-hire women. However you would also expect to see a great many women who were hard-drinking and available for hire, but were not middle-aged. You would expect to see similar women who were in old age. You would get taller women and shorter women. Women with red hair and blonde hair. Slimmer women and fatter women. There were thousands of women in the possible victim pool. But the Ripper, apart from the last kill, chooses a very similar physical type. And Tabram conforms to that type. Coincidence? Very possibly. But I don't think you can rule out the Ripper on this kill by saying 'well there were lots and lots of women just like the victims and this is one of them'. If Tabram were younger, if she were taller, if she were sober, if she was of a slightly higher demographic, I'd agree. But she isn't. She conforms to the type of the first 4 canonical kills.

The better reason for discounting her is the dissimilarity of the attack. And that is why, for years, I discounted this kill. However I am now considering the possibility that this might have been the first Ripper kill. And if it was, we might look more closely at it. Everything I have read suggests that it's the first kill that tells the most. For that reason, although the Tabram killing may well not have been the Ripper's work, I intend to pay a little more attention to it than I did before.

[c.d.]

A chicken or the egg question...when the doctor speculated that a bayonet could have been used was he aware that Martha had been seen in the company of soldiers?

c.d.

[Shelley]

Supe,
I have also mentioned the same that Polly, Annie were part-time ( or casual) prostitues and quite a few were casual, but also alongside which would be a better ' victimology 'as Fisherman i've heard make reference about, would be those that were professional and full-time by trade, for a Victimology count to a dangerous man about town. However, it seems they were unlucky enough to encounter the ripper, even though others are better suited to the Victimology that Fisherman speaks about, in regard to a dangerous man such as JTR.

[Supe]

Chava,

However you would also expect to see a great many women who were hard-drinking and available for hire, but were not middle-aged.

Really?

You would get taller women and shorter women.

Even if you discount Kelly, you get a range of 5-0 to 5-5 whic pretty much straddles the average height for a female then. And remember, 50% will be within an innch or two of that average.

There were thousands of women in the possible victim pool. But the Ripper, apart from the last kill, chooses a very similar physical type.

Again, you making the error of assuming that because we know the age and physique of just a few women that they are somehow not clustered around the mean point for all women in their situation.

The better reason for discounting her is the dissimilarity of the attack.

Which, if you'd read my article you'd find is what I did. You are the one who brought up the victim simalarity.

Don.

[Supe]

Shelley,

even though others are better suited to the Victimology that Fisherman speaks about, in regard to a dangerous man such as JTR.

That is between you and Crister.

Don.

[Shelley]

[QUOTE]Chava;68677]
[QUOTE} There were thousands of women in the possible victim pool. But the Ripper, apart from the last kill, chooses a very similar physical type. And Tabram conforms to that type. Coincidence? Very possibly. But I don't think you can rule out the Ripper on this kill by saying 'well there were lots and lots of women just like the victims and this is one of them'. If Tabram were younger, if she were taller, if she were sober, if she was of a slightly higher demographic, I'd agree. But she isn't. She conforms to the type of the first 4 canonical kills.[/QUOTE}

Chava part-time or casual prostitutes have less ' victimology ' weight than those that are professional, between a casual prostitute and a professional the chances are the professional prostitute increase her chances of risk of being attacked, it's that simple...You can mention all you like about short ones, fat ones, dark-hair, blonde, red head the fact is there are dozens of women who will almost past as a double for any one of those women who were mutilated. And to say that there are a type of the first 4 canocials, personally with wounding MO style & signature ( also any adaptions) i wouldn't say that even Nicholls relates to all the others of 4 canocials for a start, nor that of Mary Kelly to Chapman or Eddowes, so this surprises me to have you mention 4 canocials.
I would still like Fisherman to answer my question concerning the Heart stab to Martha and his theory in relation to my knowledge of fight or flight in the killer's urgency to silence Martha.

The better reason for discounting her is the dissimilarity of the attack. And that is why, for years, I discounted this kill.

There is no better reason to count her dissimilarity, what's this disimilarity, the heart stab? by any chance.....This is my point also in relation to my questioning his theory of Martha being JTR's victim. He has not given me a credible answer that i know of yet. I shall see after this post.

However I am now considering the possibility that this might have been the first Ripper kill. And if it was, we might look more closely at it. Everything I have read suggests that it's the first kill that tells the most. For that reason, although the Tabram killing may well not have been the Ripper's work, I intend to pay a little more attention to it than I did before.

And what do you consider JTR's first Kill?, as it seems to be on debate and there are differences in opinion as to JTR's said first kill. Personally drawing on same killings of MO and style with signature i would say it was Nicholls. And for your information i don't think the first kill tells the most, it is indeed the last, as with adaptations, more signature and more in-depth personality comes to light. It is the last kill not the first in this you are mistaken.

[Jeff Leahy]

A chicken or the egg question...when the doctor speculated that a bayonet could have been used was he aware that Martha had been seen in the company of soldiers?

c.d.

And just to add to that excellent observation CD. Is there any evidence at all. (Despite the fact that the police tried to verify Pearli Polls story) that Martha was drinking with her and two soldiers the night she was murdered?

So what you have is no evidence of two knives being used. And no evidence of any soldiers.

What you do have is a photo of Martha that suggests strangulation and the fact that she was found in a similar position to the other victims.

A women clearly killed by someone with a frenzied brutal temper.

yet supposedly this person choose not to attack again if he wasnt Jack the Ripper...

I mean come on guys

Pirate

[perrymason]

And just to add to that excellent observation CD. Is there any evidence at all. (Despite the fact that the police tried to verify Pearli Polls story) that Martha was drinking with her and two soldiers the night she was murdered?

So what you have is no evidence of two knives being used. And no evidence of any soldiers.

What you do have is a photo of Martha that suggests strangulation and the fact that she was found in a similar position to the other victims.

A women clearly killed by someone with a frenzied brutal temper.

yet supposedly this person choose not to attack again if he wasnt Jack the Ripper...

I mean come on guys

Pirate

Who says he couldnt have killed again Pirate...or before? People killed the non-canonical group of the period too...there were some 7-8 potentially non Ripper murders. Some quite similar to Ripper attributed deaths...to my mind, such as Alice McKenzie.

Who says if Elizabeth Stride was killed by Broadshouldered Man that he never committed another violent crime, or if Mary was killed by a man not the Ripper, but who had prior or post violent tendencies recognized?

If Liz Stride and/or Mary Kelly were not Ripper victims, then you have roughly one third of all the unfortunate deaths reported during the salient period being by Jack.

Which means that over 60 % of the time, someone else killed them.

Cheers Pirate

[Shelley]

Pirate Jack,
I'm unsure whether the Police may have informed Dr Killeen of possible connection of Tabram with a soldier, but very good question. Personally i thought that the police work was separated and that the Doctor would have only given them his report. However i do recall checking sometime ago from a pathologist that given that Martha was past the age of 25 her breat-bone would have hardened so a knife may have proved difficult in penetrating this bone, had she been younger and in her twenties this bone would have been soft ( i suddenly think of Mary Kelly age approx 25 yrs).

[Shelley]

Shelley,

even though others are better suited to the Victimology that Fisherman speaks about, in regard to a dangerous man such as JTR.

That is between you and Crister.

Don.

Who's Crister?

[Chava]

Again, you making the error of assuming that because we know the age and physique of just a few women that they are somehow not clustered around the mean point for all women in their situation.

Supe, walk out the door. Look at the women you see. Are they all the same physical type? No they are not. Look at the images of the poor women that Sutcliffe murdered. He was working the red-light districts of Leeds, Bradford, and so on. So you might imagine that there might be a physical similarity between these women who were all probably on the same stroll, charging the same amount of money. Is there? No there is not. Sutcliffe hit all kinds of women. Caucasian women, African-British women, young women, older women. No pattern of physical similarity at all. But the Ripper hits 4 women for sure, and those 4 women all look very similar. And Tabram looks just like them.

[Jeff Leahy]

Who says he couldnt have killed again Pirate...or before? People killed the non-canonical group of the period too...there were some 7-8 potentially non Ripper murders. Some quite similar to Ripper attributed deaths...to my mind, such as Alice McKenzie.

Who says if Elizabeth Stride was killed by Broadshouldered Man that he never committed another violent crime, or if Mary was killed by a man not the Ripper, but who had prior or post violent tendencies recognized?

If Liz Stride and/or Mary Kelly were not Ripper victims, then you have roughly one third of all the unfortunate deaths reported during the salient period being by Jack.

Which means that over 60 % of the time, someone else killed them.

Cheers Pirate

Sorry Michael I just don’t get this logic. Perhaps the man who killed Alice McKenzie was the same as the man who killed Tabram? But wasn’t Jack the Ripper.

Your just knocking square pegs through round holes.

Jack killed Tabram, Jack killed Stride, Jack killed Kelly, Jack killed McKenzie.

There that’s nice and simple Square pegs in square holes, round in round.

Pirate

[Sam Flynn]

But the Ripper hits 4 women for sure, and those 4 women all look very similar.

As a "class", they were ragged, gin-soaked drabs in the main, and to that extent they'd be rather uniform in general appearance - along with many thousands of others in the area who were or were not streetwalkers.

As individuals, they were quite dissimilar. Not pretending to get each feature spot-on, but for example:

Tabram - "Rubenesque" (i.e. fat) and plain-looking, round face, with apparently greasy, combed back hair

Nichols - slight build, fine-boned features, thin wispy hair, reasonably good looking

Chapman - puffy face and very plain features, body undernourished, wavy hair

Stride - long face, moderately attractive, reasonably nourished, lanky frame, longish, curly hair

Eddowes - pleasing, but not exactly beautiful, face with a retrousse nose; very thin and slightly built, with shortish hair

Kelly - comparatively attractive, relatively tall, well-nourished, buxom, very long wavy hair


Comparing the situation to modern serial killer cases is rather pointless, in that practically everybody of the lower working class, be they male or female, looked amazingly similar in the Late Victorian Period. Any glance at the witness descriptions of "Jack", or a photograph of that period, will confirm as much. Some street scene photos are like sepia versions of the Terracotta Army.

[Shelley]

Sam,
The Descriptions of Stride, Kelly, Eddowes, Chapman for example the age also makes a difference in attractiveness as well, Kelly was still in her twenties but the others were all middle aged, so loss of some looks would be relevent. I thought that Tabram also had a puffy face didn't she? Perhaps the puffiness could have indicated some malnourishment?

[Chava]

Hang on a second, Gareth. These are the descriptions of the first 4 vicims as taken from this board:

Mary Anne Nicholls:

5'2" tall; brown eyes; dark complexion; brown hair turning grey; five front teeth missing (Rumbelow); two bottom-one top front (Fido), her teeth are slightly discoloured. She is described as having small, delicate features with high cheekbones and grey eyes. She has a small scar on her forehead from a childhood injury.

Annie Chapman:

Annie Chapman (Illustrated Police News)

5' tall
45 years old at time of death
Pallid complexion
Blue eyes
Dark brown wavy hair
Excellent teeth (possibly two missing in lower jaw)
Strongly built (stout)
Thick nose
She is under nourished and suffering from a chronic disease of the lungs (tuberculosis) and brain tissue. It is said that she is dying. These could also be symptoms of syphilis.
Although she has a drinking problem she is not described as an alcoholic.

Liz Stride:

At the time of her death she was 45 years old. She had a pale complexion, light gray eyes and had curly dark brown hair. All the teeth in her lower left jaw were missing and she stood five foot five inches tall.

Catherine Eddowes:

Catherine Eddowes is born on April 14, 1842 in Graisley Green, Wolverhampton. At the time of her death she is 5 feet tall, has hazel eyes and dark auburn hair. She has a tattoo in blue ink on her left forearm "TC."

All of those women had dark hair. 3 out of 4 were missing teeth. 3 out of 4 were 5' tall. 4 out of 4 were in their 40s, although one looked younger. Martha Tabram was dark-haired, 5'3", stout and 'middle-aged.

Chapman may have been undernourished, but she wasn't thin. The two don't always go hand-in-hand, and I imagine she was pretty bloated as Tabram seems to be.

Good points have been made about the universality of the victim pool. There would have been a lot of women who answered the above descriptions. But as I said before, the same could be said of Sutcliffe or Robert Pickton, both of whom preyed on prostitutes. And Pickton was working the notorious Vancouver slum in Downtown East, which from what I've read seems to be a terrifying modern equivalent of the area around Dorset St. But if you look at the photos of his victims, there is a wide range of appearance and age.

The Ripper, however, stuck to one type over 4 killings.

I think you are being somewhat disingenuous with your comment on the photographs. People may well have looked similar in photographs. But the information on the site, I believe, is from witnesses who knew the deceased, and from autopsies. They would have been in a better position to describe these women than we are just looking at the photographs. So I believe 'em!