Ripper Victim?

[Ben]

Hi Glenn,

It does NOT bear any other hallmarks of the Ripper murders

No, the acts of whacking someone over the head with a gravel-filled sock and killing someone else by mutilating their abdomen don't have any hallmarks with eachother, and yet Sutcliffe - whose MO was fairly consistent when compared to the majority of serial killers - was responsible for both. The Zodiac killer I've dealt with, but that case also offers us with demonstrable evidence that a MO-consistent serial killer is pefectly capable of radically altering it.

They are just not the robots that popular perception had led too many to believe. The so called drastic change that would have occured to get from Tabram to Nichols is minor and trivial and comparison to these and numerous other SK examples, all of which serve as cautionary tales against fine-tuning a serial killer's MO and confining it only to the most "consistent" murders in the serial.

I've never heard any expert in criminology rule out Tabram as a ripper victim for good reason. The location, the victimology, the weapon type, the time in relation to the others, and the ferocity of the attack (which was exceptionally rare for the district) are all factors that a modern investigator would take very seriously indeed.

Regards,
Ben

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Ben,

As has been explained previously: location and type of victim is not viable as connections because Whitechapel was littered with prostitutes. Any violent crime towards prostitutes would be bound to happen sooner or later.

As for ferocity of the attack, that is nonsense. The ferocity of the attack on Tabram - with its frenzied nature - is completely dissimilar to what's shown in the Ripper murders.
Knife murders is probably one of the most common types of murders after strangulation and in such an environment, with poor classes and social problem and littered with prostitutes (who themselves not always draws especially nice characters to them but always risks to attract numerous perverted or abnormal individuals), one shouldn't really be surprised over the fact that such an incident would occur.
On the contrary, one should be more surprised over that it didn't happen more frequently.

Regardless of what you say, a multiple stabbing made in a frenzie has absolutely nothing to do with the mentality shown in the Ripper murders. The Tabram murder was a rage killing while the Ripper obviously - according to the medical and crime scene evidence - appeared to have focused on the post mortem activities, not the actual murder itself.
It is a completely different kind of personality at large. NOT a "switch of MO thing".

I don't care how many times you bring up the Zodiac or any other serial offender who changes his modus operandi.
What is imporatnt in the Ripper crimes are the signature elements, and as most criminologists say: signature seldom changes to a larger degree since it is connected to the offender's fantasies. The Ripper's signature of ripping people up, taking out their intestines and organs (and cutting their throats extremely deep - if one counts that among parts of the signature) is in my opinion not something that came out of a change of modus operandi, simply because it has nothing to do with modus operandi - instead it seems to have a deeper meaning to the killer since he obviously has to do it even though it is not necessary for the actual murder and also is risky behaviour since it forces him to remain on the crime scvene longer than usual.

The Tabram murder is just an ordinary multiple stabbing murder performed in rage with little signature elements at all. Multiple stabbing murders may not have been that frequent in East End at that particular time but hey - it's got to happen sometime, and multiple stabbings are actually not that spectacular or innovating crimes, nor unusual, in the annals of crime.

What the Ripper did - however - has to be considered very extraordinary and unusual, and it's just remarkable and singular that anyone can even consider the lunatic idea that she fell victim to ther same perpetrator as the Ripper victims.

Although the Tabram murder was a very violent crime - violent enough to arouse attention - it is not even in the same ballpark and display a totally different kind of offender.

Again - in the Tabram murder there exists NONE of the main ingredients that constitutes a Ripper murder. None whatsoever. No throat cut, no disembowellment, no organ taking and no post mortem activity and no methodological approach. Just plain stabbing and rage. I am sorry, but that's all there is.
The fact that it was a prostitute that was murdered is really not strange at all considering the nature of their occupation and the vast number of them in that particular area.

It is just far-fetched overinterpretation of the evidence to the extreme.

All the best

[Shelley]

For Glenn

Glenn,
Blimey!, must be some gravel filled sock to kill someone to be classed as an MO
And another good post you made on this thread, i'll be taking some notes towards my study from you Glenn, as i can't think of everything.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Thanks Shelley.
And of course - as has been suggested previously - we may have to consider the possibility that it might have been the media coverage of the tabram murder (and possibly Emma Smith attack) that triggered the Ripper to put his fantasies into action with the Nichols murder.
It is, no doubt, just a theory but it can't be ruled out.

All the best

[Shelley]

Thanks Shelley.
And of course - as has been suggested previously - we may have to consider the possibility that it might have been the media coverage of the tabram murder (and possibly Emma Smith attack) that triggered the Ripper to put his fantasies into action with the Nichols murder.
It is, no doubt, just a theory but it can't be ruled out.

All the best

This is true, and i wouldn't say that criminals didn't read the news either, still if i like a particular knife to chop my potatoes into chips, i'd hang on to it for a while, unless i saw a shiny new one i liked in the kitchen shop magazine.

Still, i'll never give up my barbecue sauce not for anyone, not for a sausage, a burger or a drumstick!

[Ben]

Glenn,

Any violent crime towards prostitutes would be bound to happen sooner or later

But you don't find it a little odd that an occurance of such rare an extreme violence on a prostitute just happened to coincide with an even more rare series of extremely violent attacks on prostitutes at the same time in the same small locality? I don't agree that stabbing to stab/slashing is an "completely dissimilar" method of attack and dispatch. In the context of the majority of serial murders, it's more uniform that most, with the majority being capable of much greater criminal diversity.

You only have to consult the contemporary newspapers to appreciate the unusual impact the Tabram attack had on the community, and the speculation that a lunatic must have been responsible took hold at that very time. Whatever it was, it certainly wasn't just an "ordinary" murder.

We cannot possibly make pronouncements as to the mentality of the offenders concerned without knowing what they were. We certainly can't say that one was a rage killing and one wasn't. Tabram's killer could very well have sought the depraved, possibly sexual, thrill of repeatedly puncturing a lifeless corpse, and simply took his depravities to the next level when he found his next victim, exploring and discovering like most serial killers, rather than having a perfectly constructed idea of what he wanted to do and them performing it neatly and robotically. That scenario wouldn't preclude him from also having feelings of rage, and I'm obligated to point out that Nichols wasn't disembowled and no organs stolen.

The boring reality is that serial killers who engage in extreme and "unusual" murders and mutilations will usually commence their careers on a far less drastic scale.

What is imporatnt in the Ripper crimes are the signature elements, and as most criminologists say: signature seldom changes to a larger degree since it is connected to the offender's fantasies. The Ripper's signature of ripping people up, taking out their intestines and organs (and cutting their throats extremely deep - if one counts that among parts of the signature)

But we can't say with too much confidence what the ripper's signature was without knowing how many victims he killed and which were his. For all we know, his signature may well have been generalized post-mortem mutilation on a female corpse that eventually came to include elements such as evisceration and facial hacking as he explored and escalated.

Again - in the Tabram murder there exists NONE of the main ingredients that constitutes a Ripper murder. None whatsoever.

But if Tabram was a ripper victim, then one of the ingredients was mutilple stabbing. This is why we should be careful to avoid circular arguments. We can't say what "the ripper" did or didn't do based on the victims we've already excluded. The time location, victimology and weapon type irrefutably link Tabram with the other murders.

All the best,
Ben

[Shelley]

Violence on Prostitutes

The most common violence on prostitutes is ' A smack in the mouth '.....Then next a 'Smack around the head '........The ranking third is perhaps ' A kick up the Jacksie '.....Oh Blimey, i forgot a quick shove around a passage, or knocked to the ground........ then some more down the ranks is a bit of a duffing.....then a closer cousin a real beating up.............How many drunken Duckies of the night was sporting said shiner?

Then of course some real bigger stuff not so common was near in the ranks and tetering on the rarity ....A stab in the arse!

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

But you don't find it a little odd that an occurance of such rare an extreme violence on a prostitute just happened to coincidence with an even more rare series of extremely violent attacks on prostitutes at the same time in the same small locality?

No, not at all. I have seen much stranger coincidences. And as has been said before, it's quite possible that it actually may have been the news of the Tabram attack that might have triggered off the Ripper into action.
You have to remember that the more or less generally accepted Ripper murders started AFTER the Tabram killing - it's not like the Tabram murder occurred in the middle of it.

I don't agree that stabbing to stab/slashing is an "completely dissimilar" method of attack and dispatch?

Well, I am sorry, but it is.

You only have to consult the contemporary newspapers to appreciate the unusual impact the Tabram attack had on the community, and the speculation that a lunatic must have been responsible took hold at that very time. Whatever it was, it certainly wasn't just an "ordinary" murder.

Read my post again, Ben. Becuase I did acknowledge the media attention (and I just knew you would bring up the papers).
However, as I said: although we have no record of any similar crime at that particular time prior to the attack, we of course have reports of other stab attacks although they weren't multiple and didn't get the same attention (Emma Smith, Ada Wilson). The Tabram murder DID get its fair share of media attention - yes - but in the annals of crime in general multiple stabbing isn't exactly unusual or considered very odd. What the Ripper did, however, is something quite extreme and can't really be compared to the multiple stabs on tabram since it contains so many odd and spectacular features.

We cannot possibly make pronouncements as to the mentality of the offenders concerned without knowing that they were. We certainly can't say that one was a rage killing and one wasn't. Tabram's killer could very well have sought the depraved, possibly sexuall, thrill of repeatedly puncturing a lifeless corpse, and simply took his depravities to the next level when he found his next victim, exploring and discovering like most serial killers, rather than having a perfectly constructed idea of what he wanted to do and them performing it neatly and robotically.

Oh come on, Ben. You can't be serious, can you?
The Ripper performed at least three murders where all important elements are displayed - unnaturally deep throat cut, disembowellment or attempts to open up the body, the focus on the abdominal and genital area.

If you're performing such things on a body - in combination with the fact thatb the victims were kileld quickly and taken by surprise - like the killer of these three women did, then it is quite obvious that this is a killer who is interested in the post mortem activites and goes to great lentghs and takes enormous risks to do them! Why else would he bother about it?
These signature aspects are not made up by chance, they are necessary for him and is the main trigger - otherwise they wouldn't occur repeatedly and he wouldn't take the unnecessary risks to perform them. It is obvious that they mean something to him and that th actual killing is secondary.

But we can't say with too much confidence what the ripper's signature was without knowing how many victims he killed and which were his. For all we know, his signature may well have been generalized post-mortem mutilation on a female corpse than eventually came to include elements such as evisceration and facial hacking as he explored and escalated.

That's not true. Regardless of how he escalated, altered or developed his signature, one can easily assume that the elements that occurs repeatedly and all are displayed in several murders naturally has to be the basis for the signature. What he then does beyond that is not a part of that discussion.

The time location, victimology and weapon type irrefutably link Tabram with the other murders.

No it doesn't, and I've explained to you at least twice why they don't. No offense, but "time location, victimology and weapon type" don't get more valid just because you repeat them over and over and refuse to listen to the counter-arguments.

All the best

[Shelley]

Good posting Glenn,
quite right it is a shame that others do not know the boundaries as you do, as you can hone in on an Mo and signature very well indeed.

[Chava]

Glenn, so sorry, but this time I don't agree with you! I'm not sure whether Tabram was a Ripper victim or not, however I do think it's a possibility. I can't believe a killer as accomplished as the Ripper just kind of happened. And then disappeared. I can well believe that Tabram was killed in anger, but I can also believe that, once he processed the enjoyment he felt during that murder, he went looking for other victims. The difference between their murders and the Tabram murder being that he did not set out to kill Tabram, although he did set out to kill the other poor women.

One could make an argument for a further progression in MO in the Kelly killing, which also exhibits some marked differences of approach to the other 4.

[harry]

There is no evidence that connects a soldier in Tabram's murder.There is only evidence of her having been in the company of a soldier some time previously to her death.TwoHours if the estimated time of death by Killeen is accepted.There was no reason to suppose that recent intimicy had taken place,(according to Killeen)so if she was a prostitute,she doesn't seem to have bee working hard at it that day,and three distinct areas of mutilation does not,in my opinion equate to frenzy,but rather to a controlled and meaningful thoughtfulness,by a person who had a specific purpose in mind.There was no indication of which wound pierced the heart,or that it was that wound that caused death.The difference between the diferent killings was just that of trial and error.Throat stabbing was not convenient so the killer tried throat slashing,and it would not have taken three weeks to come to that simple conclusion.

[harry]

Shelly,
It shows your ignorance when you describe soldiers as you did.Still,it's about an a par with the ignorance you show in every thing else.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

There is no evidence that connects a soldier in Tabram's murder.There is only evidence of her having been in the company of a soldier some time previously to her death.TwoHours if the estimated time of death by Killeen is accepted.There was no reason to suppose that recent intimicy had taken place,(according to Killeen)so if she was a prostitute,she doesn't seem to have bee working hard at it that day,and three distinct areas of mutilation does not,in my opinion equate to frenzy,but rather to a controlled and meaningful thoughtfulness,by a person who had a specific purpose in mind.There was no indication of which wound pierced the heart,or that it was that wound that caused death.The difference between the diferent killings was just that of trial and error.Throat stabbing was not convenient so the killer tried throat slashing,and it would not have taken three weeks to come to that simple conclusion.

Harry,

I would say the soldier found loitering around the vicinity of the crime scene at the right time for the murder to occur by PC Barrett (and where his "pal had gone away with a girl") is a much more valid and likely connection rather than the soldiers referred to by Pearly Poll.

There is nothing controlled at all about the wounds om Tabram.
It is pure nonsense to try to construct specified target areas on a body that was pretty much stabbed all over the torso, neck and abdomin with 39 stabs.
The wounds on Tabram does not in any way stand out from any other case I've seen with multiple stabbing; the chest, torso and abdomin are almost among the most common parts to attack and the ones you would expect to get hit by the knife.

Like any other multiple stabbing murder, the wounds are a result of sudden rage and frenzy (I haven't come across a single case where it is NOT a result of frenzie), nothing else, and it is quite obvious considering the vast number of stabs.
It is equally nonsense to claim that the change from Tabram to Nichols was a result of trial and error.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I can't believe a killer as accomplished as the Ripper just kind of happened. And then disappeared.

Well, he did that anyway, regardless of which victims we attribute to him, so I fail to see that point, Chava.

All the best

[Shelley]

Chava,
How well accomplished a Killer like Jack have to be, just hanging around the few murders that happened around the east-end, not much practice around there unless you want to get caught, we all know including Glenn that he had to start somewhere before Nicholls, and i for one could see any resemblence of anything in Mo style & signature worth looking at in Tabram as a possible JTR coming out of the closet, i'd be pro-camp Tabram....Unfortunatley Chava she is not, i might be looking for a Diddles II, or a ' Rover ....come here boy! ' or the remenence of anything that came out of the local Cats & Dogs home, as more of a possibility than Tabram.