Ripper Victim?

[Sam Flynn]

Also the word ' Engaging/ engaged/engage is not starting or raising a subject

That's what I took it to mean.

'What do you have to say Sam?

Since you ask, Shelley, I don't think Tabram was a Ripper victim. She's arguably one of the more "probable" of the "possibles", but she wouldn't have been the first, nor the last, murder victim to have been frenziedly stabbed multiple times. The cutting open of Polly Nichols, a few weeks later, strikes me as being the manifestation of an entirely different need.

[Shelley]

That's what I took it to mean.Since you ask, Shelley, I don't think Tabram was a Ripper victim. She's arguably one of the more "probable" of the "possibles", but she wouldn't have been the first, nor the last, murder victim to have been frenziedly stabbed multiple times. The cutting open of Polly Nichols, a few weeks later, strikes me as being the manifestation of an entirely different need.

Sam,
With the second paragraph, and your Thoughts on Tabram, we are like minded on Tabram....Also it's evident on this thread she's arguably a possibility of a JTR victim, and i agree in general that Tabram wasn't a first or last victim to have been victimised in such a manner. However i will say this, i do not think that the relation of the cuts on Tabram's Vagina is in relation to JTR's hand in the Victims Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes, and it was the same underhand with those three only.

[Fisherman]

Shelley writes:

"What wounds did she die of? "

Bloodloss is given as the cause of death, Shelley - and we know that Killeen says she lived through her ordeal.
One does not, however, survive a stab clean through the heart, does one? So in all probability, that stab was the coup de grace. And it is strange, is ti not, that the other stabs seem to have been delivered in a flurry, with no much thought going into where they ended up. And suddenly we have this stab through sternum and heart. I say it seems not to be the work of the same man who delivered his stabs in a rage - this is a cool, calculating kill-off.

"SHE IS NOT A JTR VICTIM"

There´s wisdom for you - I wish I could be that sure. Or that it would help my cause if I used capital letters.

"Go back and rethink Fisherman"

I´ve been back, thinking, Shelley. I´ve been all over the place actually, and I have spent a good number of years believing she was not a Ripper victim. But I have changed my mind on the issue, and that - believe it or not - is the result of thinking on my behalf. Besides, you still owe me an answer to my question what other scenario takes care of all the tricky ingredients in as satisfying a manner as my suggestion does. Impress me, Shelley!

The best,
Fisherman

[Chava]

Fisherman, I also believed for years that Tabram was not a Ripper victim. Now, however, I think she may have been the kill that jump-started all the others. Different MO but same kind of victim. Rage kill and probably not premeditated. I always thought she said something unfortunate to the guy and he lost it. I haven't changed my mind. But I wonder if, in losing his temper, he found something else...

And that started his career in murder.

[perrymason]

Hi all,

Ive been watching a similar argument reappear every so often here, and I think its at the crux of why I personally do not see Martha Tabram as anything but killed by an actual client...not one who pretends to be.

The evolution that would have had to take place to explain the confident and quick dispatch of Mary Ann by subduing first and only then using the knife for slitting her throat to kill AND bleed her out.

Martha is stabbed to death, Polly is mortally injured by having her throat cut.

Martha is standing or leaning when she is attacked with a knife. Polly is by medical opinion lying down before the knife is used.

Martha is killed with 2 weapons. There are no indications Polly was.

Martha we know was picked up earlier by a man who could legally wear easily accessible weapons. There are no indications Polly was.

There are indications Martha resisted, there are no such indicators that Polly could or did.

Martha was attacked on a landing behind some buildings where prostitutes sometimes took clients. Polly was killed in front of houses in plain sight of anyone happening by.

Marthas killer almost certainly got bloody...the same cannot be said for the killer of Mary Ann with any confidence.

There was almost certainly anger in the mind of Martha's killer based on the number and profile of the stabs....there is no indication by Pollys demeanor that her killer was "angry".

The killer of Mary Ann made some stupid first timer type mistakes,....not the least of which is his venue choice if he hoped to have some time to mutilate her more...or get an organ. But he was also a competent killer...Marthas killer was not competent. He was emotional, pissed off, maybe a sadist.....Pollys killer left no evidence that he intentionally prolonged any painful processes.

Best regards all.

[Shelley]

Shelley writes:

"What wounds did she die of? "

Bloodloss is given as the cause of death, Shelley - and we know that Killeen says she lived through her ordeal.
One does not, however, survive a stab clean through the heart, does one? So in all probability, that stab was the coup de grace. And it is strange, is ti not, that the other stabs seem to have been delivered in a flurry, with no much thought going into where they ended up. And suddenly we have this stab through sternum and heart. I say it seems not to be the work of the same man who delivered his stabs in a rage - this is a cool, calculating kill-off.

"SHE IS NOT A JTR VICTIM"

There´s wisdom for you - I wish I could be that sure. Or that it would help my cause if I used capital letters.

"Go back and rethink Fisherman"

I´ve been back, thinking, Shelley. I´ve been all over the place actually, and I have spent a good number of years believing she was not a Ripper victim. But I have changed my mind on the issue, and that - believe it or not - is the result of thinking on my behalf. Besides, you still owe me an answer to my question what other scenario takes care of all the tricky ingredients in as satisfying a manner as my suggestion does. Impress me, Shelley!

The best,
Fisherman

Answer: Random wounding in order to cause possible death.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Fisherman, I also believed for years that Tabram was not a Ripper victim. Now, however, I think she may have been the kill that jump-started all the others. Different MO but same kind of victim. Rage kill and probably not premeditated. I always thought she said something unfortunate to the guy and he lost it. I haven't changed my mind. But I wonder if, in losing his temper, he found something else...

And that started his career in murder.

No, that's absolute rubbish.
The "same kind of victim" argument is nonsense. How many times does this has to be said? Tabram was a prostitute and they lead dangerous lives - this is true today and was true a hundred years ago. And in Whitechapel a large majority of the poorer women without any steady income had to resort to prostitution. Considering the working conditions of these women and the nature of the area, it is actually strange that more violent crimes didn't occur than they actually did.

The murder of Martha Tabram was a frenzied multiple stabbing murder presunably made by a client - most likely one or two soldiers, as the evidence suggest.
It does NOT bear any other hallmarks of the Ripper murders, which are more methodical and does not really seem to dislapy an interest in the actual killing but what could be done to the victim AFTER the victim was dead. The Ripper appears to have had a different psychological disposition and a different agenda or urge than the perpetrator of the Tabram murder.
It is nonsense to try to connect them and a result of fanciful overinterpretation.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Chava, don't forget, Martha was killed on a Bank Holiday too, like some of the others.

Yeah, which means more customers (like soldiers on leave) and more activity among prostitutes - not to mention more money to earn - which in turns means that the statistical possibility for any crime connected with such activity would increase. Big deal.

All the best

[Shelley]

Good Post!

Perrymason,

A damn fine post above, if i may say so, it shows the differences in the Killing of Tabram & Nicholls and a different Killer in operation here.

[Shelley]

Yeah, which means more customers (like soldiers on leave) and more activity among prostitutes - not to mention more money to earn - which in turns means that the statistical possibility for any crime connected with such activity would increase. Big deal.

All the best

Glenn,
You are in fine form with your knowledge on the working conditions of prostitutes, that also rings in my mind that had ill-spoken words from a prostitute would endevour the vicious savage attack on Tabram, i wonder why the streets weren't streaming with dead prostitues, the chap who was a soldier and went off with Tabram, was little better than a psycho-sadistic killer in any case ( most likely why he was a soldier ), it would have been his nature anyway to spark away with such a short fuse, many people would be used to hard crude and some volitile langauage in the east-end, however unlikely a prostitute would do this with a client as he was her bread and butter! Tabram may have tried to steal a little extra money from him while a little sweet talk of him being such a nice man went on, or she may have been trying to get away with just tricking to see if she could, at all get away with a knee-trembler, yet again maybe not.

I have never heard that such random wounding to cause so much blood loss as in Tabram is in anyway relevant to the Mutilations of Nicholls, a jumpt-start is a statement not worth considering, and for that matter torso killings are not in any way connected either.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Tabram may have tried to steal a little extra money from him while a little sweet talk of him being such a nice man went on, or she may have been trying to get away with just tricking to see if she could, at all get away with a knee-trembler, yet again maybe not.

That's kind of what I think happened as well, Shelley.

And I believe those situations may have been more common than we think.
Tabram just probably happened to come across and do it to the 'wrong' client.

All the best

[Shelley]

That's kind of what I think happened as well, Shelley.

And I believe those situations may have been more common than we think.
Tabram just probably happened to come across and do it to the 'wrong' client.

All the best

Yes, my sentiments exactly Glenn,

If it was two soldiers, and not one with two weapons. The senario could have been one saying to the other ' The cow she tried short-changing me' and the friend giving two jabs as well, as he thought she was a cow as well.

[Brenda]

Yeah, which means more customers (like soldiers on leave) and more activity among prostitutes - not to mention more money to earn - which in turns means that the statistical possibility for any crime connected with such activity would increase. Big deal.

All the best

Glenn, I DO happen to think its a big deal! There are many similarities between the Tabram murder and the others and the fact is that some happened on bank holidays or other holidays. Plus the others that Chava listed. A wise investigator would never rule out these similarities.

[Shelley]

Glenn, I DO happen to think its a big deal! There are many similarities between the Tabram murder and the others and the fact is that some happened on bank holidays or other holidays. Plus the others that Chava listed. A wise investigator would never rule out these similarities.

Brenda,
A wise investigator for the most part would chuck it in the bin as Tabram being a Ripper victim, the police did have an ID parade for a soldier in connection with the Tabram killing. And No, there are incredible differences to Tabram being the victim of the same killer as that from Nicholls! Also no not all ripper canocials occurred on a bank holiday Brenda.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Glenn, I DO happen to think its a big deal! There are many similarities between the Tabram murder and the others and the fact is that some happened on bank holidays or other holidays. Plus the others that Chava listed. A wise investigator would never rule out these similarities.

Brenda,
There are no similarities of real importance between the Tabram murder and the Ripper crimes.
Not in method of killing, not in signature and not in offender psychology.
Absolutely nothing.

Whitechapel alone carried over 1200 prostitutes (but I suppose there were a large number that went unregistred since we're usually not talking professionals here) and it has always been one of the most dangerous trades.
On holidays the number of clients as well as prostitute activities would increase dramatically since a lot of people would be off from work and have money to spare (in Tabram's case it is especially interesting since apaprently a lot of soldiers were on leave that night).
Of course the statistical possibility for a prostitute-related crime would increase with several 100% on such a night!

So unfortunately "type of victim" and location means very little of significance.
But as many of the pro-Tabram camp, you are overinterpreting things that may have quite natural and less dramatical explanations.

All the best