Ripper Victim?

[Ben]

Then display the actual copies of the reports from the doctors on this thread, as the reports i read upheld what i've already said, and i wouldn't have said if this didn't stick in my mind as to the actual reports i read over a year ago.

Please consult the Eddowes information on this site, Shelley. It's all there for your persual, and Eddowes' impressively detailed biography section includes links at the bottom to all the relevent press reports and inquest evidence.

Especially when i vividly recall the doctor saying that it would have to be someone with anomitcal knowledge to get past the membrane of & to the womb

That's Dr. Brown's inference, but as I've mentioned already, others disagreed.

[Shelley]

Please consult the Eddowes information on this site, Shelley. It's all there for your persual, and Eddowes' impressively detailed biography section includes links at the bottom to all the relevent press reports and inquest evidence.



That's Dr. Brown's inference, but as I've mentioned already, others disagreed.

I have Ben....thankyou

[Shelley]

Martha Tabram Ripper Victim?

it's an interesting theory that of ' Scavenger ' of 2 men having a go at poor Martha.................Senario:

Jack the Ripper puts in an Advertisement in the local newspaper:

Anyone that's into a spot of violence on a Prozzie,
Please notify me at this Postal Address, as i can do
with the bodies to scavange on....You see i have a
need to do a bit of Practice of mutilation on, so
whether you leave her half dead, dead, in a stairway,
on the street, in a gutter, i'd be very grateful if you'd
notify me, and put her my way. thankyou,
yours truly
Jack the Ripper


Yes, i put Jack the Ripper....For a moment i thought i'd put Jack the Kipper!

[Shelley]

Also can anyone trace a company called 'mutilations are us' that traces back to Jack's Postal Address??

[Fisherman]

Shelley writes:
"Fisherman, this is far fetched including the time period of 3 weeks. Also a scavenging theory is way far fetched for a killer who already needs to mutilate and extract organs, in itself!"

I have been told this before, Shelly, and I realize that it is a hard pill to swallow for some. Still, I think that it may just as well be reasoned that it would be strange if our man emerged from nowhere with a full-blown MO of deeply cut throats and eviscerations.
To my mind, the scavenger theory has many merits, in particular when you apply it to the two-bladed demise of Tabram. Many a killer would never have become killers (or would at least have postponed their activity) if not the unresistable opportunity had opened up itself at a suitable time and under suitable circumstances. It is a case of inner, suppressed urges meeting useful outer circumstances.
If we imagine the Ripper as a suppressed boiler, then we can also see the merit in a scavenger scenario just as we can see that once the lid was off that boiler ...

On a side note, I think that both I and the discussion on a whole could do without any failed efforts to produce good jokes on your behalf. Most of us out here realize that a scavenger scenario is not the statistically most credible one, and therefore many posters will not buy it on the whole. But they manage to keep their criticism on a constructive level, and most of them even make efforts to see what merits the suggestion may have.
If you can come up with a scenario that explains the silence and the use of different blades, just as it may offer an explanation to the Rippers later MO, it would be much more interesting to take part of than what you have offered so far. Excuse my french.
I´ll be off the boards for a couple of hours, but I´ll try to chime in later and see what´s going on!

The best,
Fisherman

[Shelley]

Shelley writes:
"Fisherman, this is far fetched including the time period of 3 weeks. Also a scavenging theory is way far fetched for a killer who already needs to mutilate and extract organs, in itself!"

I have been told this before, Shelly, and I realize that it is a hard pill to swallow for some. Still, I think that it may just as well be reasoned that it would be strange if our man emerged from nowhere with a full-blown MO of deeply cut throats and eviscerations.
To my ind, the scavenger theory has many merits, in particular whn you apply it to the two-bladed demise of Tabram. Many a killer would never have become killers if not the unresistable opportunity had opened up itself at a suitable time and under suitable circumstances. It is a case of inner, suppressed urges meeting useful outer circumstances.
If we imagine the Ripper as a suppressed boiler, then we can also see the merit in a scavenger scenario just as we can see that once the lid was off that boiler ...

The best,
Fisherman

From a realistic point of view Fisherman......Who was the actual killer of Tabram! What wounds did she die of? I'd have thought 39 stabs to ( or in theory at least 37 of those wounds...However, more than 30 wounds in places would cause enough blood loss and death)....Still back on track, your scavenger theory is that 2 men, one being JTR delivering 2 cuts/wounds after possibly a soldier had a frenzied attack on said woman Martha that would have caused enough stabs wounds/cuts to cause her death.....SHE IS NOT A JTR VICTIM......A Frenzied Killer possibly a soldier victim.
Go back and rethink Fisherman.
And also Not in a 3 WEEK period!

[perrymason]

Shelley writes:
"Fisherman, this is far fetched including the time period of 3 weeks. Also a scavenging theory is way far fetched for a killer who already needs to mutilate and extract organs, in itself!"

I have been told this before, Shelly, and I realize that it is a hard pill to swallow for some. Still, I think that it may just as well be reasoned that it would be strange if our man emerged from nowhere with a full-blown MO of deeply cut throats and eviscerations.

To my ind, the scavenger theory has many merits, in particular when you apply it to the two-bladed demise of Tabram. Many a killer would never have become killers if not the unresistable opportunity had opened up itself at a suitable time and under suitable circumstances. It is a case of inner, suppressed urges meeting useful outer circumstances.
If we imagine the Ripper as a suppressed boiler, then we can also see the merit in a scavenger scenario just as we can see that once the lid was off that boiler ...

The best,
Fisherman

Hey Fisherman,

Theres quite an evolutionary leap from Martha to Polly in terms of "sophistication", for lack of a better word at the moment. If he scavenges that last stab with the larger knife into Martha,...which means he stabs to kill, rather than slits throats to kill at this stage,... who's the intermediary step that leads to Polly's methodology?

The part I emboldened in your quote is because I dont think its necessary at all for any so called killer evolution to have taken place before Mary Ann. I believe its well within reason to surmise he had some exposure to anatomy whether by book or hands on experience...he may have even tried a technique to choke a victim so they black out quickly on animals before stepping into the limelight.

He may have arrived as is...in which case I would think some strong credence should be given to exactly what he does do...and how its done. This may be a chosen methodology with study or practice off-stage....not an evolved one.

All the best FM.

[Shelley]

Please consult the Eddowes information on this site, Shelley. It's all there for your persual, and Eddowes' impressively detailed biography section includes links at the bottom to all the relevent press reports and inquest evidence.



That's Dr. Brown's inference, but as I've mentioned already, others disagreed.

Ben
I will say this, others disagree with Dr Bagster Phillips, how many of others disagree with all four doctors in the long run....We tend to lean and get an idea of what the Doctors are actually saying and disagree slightly with somethings, you have yours they have thiers & i have mine! But Doctor's statements/reports ( EVIDENCE) Oh and put-up the reports like i asked.....Martha Tabram 2 men 1 scavenger as possible JTR ( Theory & Conjecture......NOT EVIDENCE). Plus which man killed Tabram if any cred goes into this unrealistic version, held i might add above realistic likely circumstance of 2 men wounding Tabram. The Man responsible for Tabram's death is the Killer and Tabram is his victim.

[FrankO]

The Hillside strangler also left some of his victims in such a spread-eagled fashion as you mention Frank, so more than one serial killer has used this, and in this senario the Hillside strangler ain't a suspect in the JTR case.

Hi Shelley,

In my post to Glenn I was just reacting to his remark that "there is absolutely nothing that ties her to a Ripper crime." I never said that the Ripper must have been responsible for Tabram's murder because there are a couple of facts that do ty Tabram's murder to the Ripper murders. I actually said that it doesn't follow that Tabram fell victim to the Ripper. As Glenn has suggested a number of times in the past, it may well have been that the news about Tabram's murder actually triggered the Ripper into starting his own 'carreer'.

All the best,
Frank

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Tjena Glenn,

That's quite a bold statement, my Swedish friend. I'm not going to try to convince you of anything, because I know that aint no use, but your statement is untrue. There's not just the locality, the time frame and the overkill, but - much more importantly - there's the spread-eagled legs, the turned up skirts and the cut to Tabram's private part, clearly showing a specific morbid interest in her lower body, which was certainly shared by the Ripper. Obviously, that doesn't make Tabram a Ripper victim, but there sure isn't 'absolutely noting' to ty her to the Ripper murders either.

All the best,
Frank

Tjena Frank, my friend.
How are the tulips doing?

It's certainly been a while! How about trying to make it to the Ripper conference in London this year?

Well, when I mean that there is nothing tying her to the Ripper crimes, I meant that there are nothing of importance similar to what we know the Ripper did. That's all.

As for locality - hey, we're talking of a prostitute murder here so the locality is obvious and quite logical considering the vast number of cheap street prostitutes gathered on a small area.
The cut to Tabram's private parts - especially considering Tabram had 38 other wounds - is of no importance to me at all and no refererence to the Ripper whatesoever. I stand by my statement.

All the best

[Shelley]

Frank,
With the cut you mention to Tabram's private part it is also evident that with Emma Smith that she had a tear in her private part, as a result of a blunt instrument shoved inside her vagina, this could also be regarded as a cut, but Emma Smith who was attacked on the 3rd of April 1888 had been attacked by what was regarded as a gang, 4 young men in total and Smith made a statement as such to this story. It would seem as with the cases of prostitues, this could perhaps be a common feature in distain when attacked, so rendering it not in the category of ' rare ' a feature. the time frame would be i guess that with older women working as prostitutes, or part time prostitutes it is an occurrance that they could well be seen to be out later, in early hours of the morning, in the hope of plying thier trade ( a simple term of ' last dregs ' in hope of a client). The cut as you mention in relation to JTR, i wouldn't take it on faith as a definate point towards Martha. The time frame, a little more so than the said cut to the vagina, yet again the time frame can still be attributed to others and not of a sure point to JTR.

[Shelley]

Perrymason

Also, Perrymason makes some very good points, personally i would go with perhaps say, a partial-strangulation to subdue the victim from JTR, even Chapman's tongue was produding to suggest hands or something around the throat prior to throat-cutting as well as the silence from the victim. With Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes thier killer does show that he had developed tastes over a period of time, so a 3 week leap as Perrymason has also mentioned, i too agree with, not as a possibility but as evident in such kills.

[Sam Flynn]

.....Shoving a spade in a frost-hardened lawn........Bollocks!

I'd try to be a little less belligerent, if I were you.

[Shelley]

Shelley writes:
"Fisherman, this is far fetched including the time period of 3 weeks. Also a scavenging theory is way far fetched for a killer who already needs to mutilate and extract organs, in itself!"

I have been told this before, Shelly, and I realize that it is a hard pill to swallow for some. Still, I think that it may just as well be reasoned that it would be strange if our man emerged from nowhere with a full-blown MO of deeply cut throats and eviscerations.
To my mind, the scavenger theory has many merits, in particular when you apply it to the two-bladed demise of Tabram. Many a killer would never have become killers (or would at least have postponed their activity) if not the unresistable opportunity had opened up itself at a suitable time and under suitable circumstances. It is a case of inner, suppressed urges meeting useful outer circumstances.
If we imagine the Ripper as a suppressed boiler, then we can also see the merit in a scavenger scenario just as we can see that once the lid was off that boiler ...

On a side note, I think that both I and the discussion on a whole could do without any failed efforts to produce good jokes on your behalf. Most of us out here realize that a scavenger scenario is not the statistically most credible one, and therefore many posters will not buy it on the whole. But they manage to keep their criticism on a constructive level, and most of them even make efforts to see what merits the suggestion may have.
If you can come up with a scenario that explains the silence and the use of different blades, just as it may offer an explanation to the Rippers later MO, it would be much more interesting to take part of than what you have offered so far. Excuse my french.
I´ll be off the boards for a couple of hours, but I´ll try to chime in later and see what´s going on!

The best,
Fisherman

Fisherman,
No not any full-blown MO can come in a three week period....So how is it then that in the space of say a week of joing a gang someone chooses a gun or a knife or takes both! And uses one weapon! ( If you go by Ben's gracious explaination...in which i corrected him!) It's a Full-Blown start of a consistent Signature....With JTR throat-cutting is a mix in MO & Signature, as Glenn has mentioned ' Deep-throat-cutting ' not an ordinary throat-cut, and along with which cutting open victims body ( mutilation) to boot!.
Oh, my joke posts.... I'm in a jovial kind of mood today, it's not intentional criticism, it's just me today, but they do kind of make a good point, in said jokes that is, Fisherman. You'll get over it.

Fisherman, as for the silence bits as well as the 2 blades i have given explaination in other posts. How many times do you want me to incur repeats, and i have repeated myself several times...

Shelley

[Nemo]

Is it clear in which sequence the wounds were made?

I tend toward the scenario where an upset client soldier stabs Tabram once with a bayonet to her chest, aiming for the heart to kill her. He then runs away.

The possible future Ripper has witnessed this by being on the next landing up in George Yard buildings which I believe housed a privy. He takes his chance on the prone woman and stabs her pretty much all over including in the genital area, and then exits the scene himself.

I can't really see a killer with two knives - stabbing repeatedly with a clasp-knife and then drawing a large knife to finish her off. Or alternatively stabbing her with the bayonet and then putting it away in favour of the clasp-knife.

I could see one soldier possibly stabbing repeatedly and then his friend comes up to the landing and drags him off - giving her one in the heart to kill her in aid of his friend.