Ripper Victim?

[DVV]

if the clothing on the upper body was moved away to give clear access for the knife, that does scream premeditation and sociopath over alcohol and lack of anger management!

You could well be right, Chava.

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

No undergarments? No stays, chemise, drawers... That having been said, if the clothing on the upper body was moved away to give clear access for the knife, that does scream premeditation and sociopath over alcohol and lack of anger management!

... it sounds like an out-of-control rape to me, Chava.

[DVV]

Hi David,

Since the definition of the knife he described includes the fact that it folds,...you're arguing with the wrong man.

Its not that you disagree with me....you either disagree with Killeens first hand opinion, or you disagree with the terms definition. I dont.

All the best

Hi Mike,

Folding knives do have different blades.
Non-folding knives too.
Foldind and non-folding knives can therefore have the same blade.
And Killeen couldn't know for sure if the knife was a folding one.
He thought: "folding knives are very common, so it can very well be a folding knife."
Un peu léger, à mon avis.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Chava and Jon

Firstly thank you Jon for taking the trouble to repost the article you found.

Just some quick observations, hopefully add on's:

Firstly the summer of 1888, was a fairly bizarre affair, it actually snowed in June and it rain most of the summer, hence Eddowes having to come home early from Hopping.

Although the myth is of London fog, actually it was cold and wet the night Martha was killed.

That however is an aside. It is my understanding that these women were basically bag ladies..in that they wore every garment they owned..they had no where to store clothes except the porn shop.

Unfortunately when Martha was murdered, its unlikely that a complete inventory was taken...and if the Nichol's murder was anything to go by, any clothing would have been discarded and thrown away quickly...

So I think we should be cautious about what Martha was actually wearing.

The fact seems to remain however that this attack took place through clothing of some discription, which does not seem the case in the other C5 attacks.

Thanks for your contributions

Yours Pirate

[Chava]

Hi Chava!

In Insp. Ellisdon`s report to Supt Arnold the then unidentified body was wearing:

"..green skirt, brown petticoat, long black jacket, brown stockings, side-spring boots, black bonnet - all old"

The clothing around the bosom could rip easily in any minor struggle, so I`m told, but it may also indicate a desire to target bare flesh, and not as many of the 39 stabs actually went through clothing.

Yes except I doubt the jacket was loose. I don't think women wore their jackets open in the way we do now. And she was just wearing a petticoat underneath so all the more reason to button up. I suspect the jacket was most likely wool, and cheap wool at that. Which would be quite thick and hard to penetrate. According to Insp Ellisdon's report, she wasn't wearing under-chemise or drawers, and I do find that hard to believe, even though I know she was a prostitute! Drawers in those days were split for...er...ease of access in the lavatory. so they wouldn't have hampered her work in any way.

[Jon Guy]

No undergarments? No stays, chemise, drawers...

if the clothing on the upper body was moved away to give clear access for the knife, that does scream premeditation and sociopath over alcohol and lack of anger management!

Hi Chava!

In Insp. Ellisdon`s report to Supt Arnold the then unidentified body was wearing:

"..green skirt, brown petticoat, long black jacket, brown stockings, side-spring boots, black bonnet - all old"

The clothing around the bosom could rip easily in any minor struggle, so I`m told, but it may also indicate a desire to target bare flesh, and not as many of the 39 stabs actually went through clothing.

[Chava]

Hi Chava

Regarding Tabram`s clothing, it was the height of summer and she was only wearing a green skirt, brown petticoat, and a long black jacket.

Hi Jon!

No undergarments? No stays, chemise, drawers... That having been said, if the clothing on the upper body was moved away to give clear access for the knife, that does scream premeditation and sociopath over alcohol and lack of anger management!

No, Mike,

you take no risk, for example, with an old Opinel.
And once again, neither you, nor I, nor Killeen, can swear it was a folding knife.

Amitiés mon collègue,
David

Hi David,

Since the definition of the knife he described includes the fact that it folds,...you're arguing with the wrong man.

Its not that you disagree with me....you either disagree with Killeens first hand opinion, or you disagree with the terms definition. I dont.

All the best

[Jon Guy]

If she was stabbed through her clothes, I think that would argue against a fragile blade. She would be wearing more and thicker clothes than a modern woman would, and the blade would have to penetrate them as well as the body and the bone.

Hi Chava

Regarding Tabram`s clothing, it was the height of summer and she was only wearing a green skirt, brown petticoat, and a long black jacket.

[Chava]

Thanks Jon Guy! I'd forgotten that press report.

So there's no frenzy going on. Why the 39 stab wounds?

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jeff

This is that press report again regarding Tabrams bare chest :


Police-constable Thomas Barrett, 26 H, was the next witness. He deposed that on Tuesday, August 7th, he was on duty about quarter to 5, and his attention was called to deceased by last witness. He went to the spot, and found a woman lying on her back in a pool of blood. She was dead. He sent another constable for a doctor, and on the arrival of Dr. Keeling, of Brick-lane, he pronounced her dead. There were no marks on the staircase. The body was not moved before the doctor arrived. Her hands were lying by her side, clenched up, and there was nothing in them. Her clothes were torn and completely disarranged, the bosom of the dress being torn away"
__________________
Kind Regards

[Jeff Leahy]

I'm assuming her clothes weren't pulled away before the stabbing began. Because if that was the case it would show more premeditation and less frenzy. If she was stabbed through her clothes, I think that would argue against a fragile blade. She would be wearing more and thicker clothes than a modern woman would, and the blade would have to penetrate them as well as the body and the bone.

Hi Chava

Yes this has been an arguement I have been making for some time. If the blade had to penetrate clothing it would make this attack different to the C5. (the Rippr having raised, cut through or removde clothing before ripping)

I beleive it was Jon Guy who found an interesting atticle claiming Martha's chest was exposed. Meaning that the attacker possibly ripped or cut her clothing away before that final blow to the heart. Although this is only speculation.

However you see it however it detracts from the usual 'Frenzied' veiw of this crime...If it was a frenzy then this supposed 'pen-knife' had to also cut through clothing...tiering and difficult (certainly not possible to RIP) or he had to take time to cut clothing away or raise it out of the way...

Now does that sound like someone in a drunken frenzy?

Because to me it sounds like the actions of a Ripper.

Pirate

[Chava]

I'm assuming her clothes weren't pulled away before the stabbing began. Because if that was the case it would show more premeditation and less frenzy. If she was stabbed through her clothes, I think that would argue against a fragile blade. She would be wearing more and thicker clothes than a modern woman would, and the blade would have to penetrate them as well as the body and the bone.

[Sam Flynn]

Locked in position? Well, if you want to risk the strength of a lock mechanism that is designed to be released fairly easily, youre a thrill seeker.

I'd have thought that locking mechanisms on knives wouldn't be designed to unlock too easily, Mike - at least, not when used in a vertical manner. What would be the point of locking them if that were the case?

Incidentally, have you seen the sorts of needles used to puncture the sternum to extract bone-marrow? I Googled about a bit, and was genuinely surprised to find out how thin they were. Granted, one "twists" them into the bone rather than stabbing the donor's chest, but nonetheless they really are quite startlingly slender instruments, considering what they have to do.

All that aside, it's clear from the Dufault case I posted yesterday that a remarkably insubstantial kind of knife can puncture the sternum and, indeed, pierce the aorta behind it.

[DVV]

Locked in position? Well, if you want to risk the strength of a lock mechanism that is designed to be released fairly easily, youre a thrill seeker.

No, Mike,

you take no risk, for example, with an old Opinel.
And once again, neither you, nor I, nor Killeen, can swear it was a folding knife.

Amitiés mon collègue,
David