Ripper Victim?

[Fisherman]

Indeed, Michael! And I of course also add the cut-wound on the lower body, and couple it with my knowledge of how rational a man the Ripper was in all his madness. And then I come up with two wounds that seem to have a rational reasoning behind them (the interest in the abdominal cavity and the need to ensure that Tabram could not give him up), and 37 that seem not to have this feature. And I find it much intriguing that these two wounds are the only ones that need not have been inflicted by the smallish weapon.

Very many speak of a scavenger scenario as a scenario that craves too much of a coincidence. But I say that when we find a victim like Tabram, it would also be a hefty coincidence if there was nothing useful to read into the fact that the only wounds that could have been inflicted by the larger blade, are also the only wounds that seemingly display an intent and a rationality that lacks in the other wounds. And, of course, if the cut was a stab gone wrong, we are faced with another coincidence - to think that the botched stab just happened to end up at the one place where our man needed to cut ...

Good to see you around too, Michael - as always!

The best,
Fisherman

What Killeen said was that Tabram lived throughout the stabbings. That would mean that the blow to the heart came last, for it alone would have put her to death.
Ergo, Killeens assertion would have been based on the fact that the smaller wounds bled for a longish time. This is strengthened by the reports about a pool of blood between Tabrams legs. Saunders also said that she was lying in a pool of blood if I donīt misremember.

The best,
Fisherman

Good...my memory on the details synced with the above FM. Nice to see you Fisherman, by the way.

I see that large wound as sort of the blow that puts a suffering animal out of its misery...38 of the stabs werent designed specifically to cause a kill wound....they were angry stabs...but that large wound intended to kill.

This particular aspect of the murder is where I see your supposition may have some legs.....if the frenized stabbing was the majority of the attack, and the dagger/bayonet was the only definite "kill" wound....that could be indicative of different personalities as well as weapons.

Best regards FM.

[Fisherman]

What Killeen said was that Tabram lived throughout the stabbings. That would mean that the blow to the heart came last, for it alone would have put her to death.
Ergo, Killeens assertion would have been based on the fact that the smaller wounds bled for a longish time. This is strengthened by the reports about a pool of blood between Tabrams legs. Saunders also said that she was lying in a pool of blood if I donīt misremember.

The best,
Fisherman

Depends on how quickly she died. If by any chance the heart wound was first, no matter how many stabs were administered they would not have bled all that much comparatively to how she would have bled if the heart wound was last.

I don't know what order the wounds occurred or if it was discussed at any point to indicate whether they knew by blood volume how quickly in the series the kill blow occurred.

Thats a valid point Ally...as Chava indicated the medical opinion was that the large wound in the chest was enough to kill on its own, but I dont know that a conclusion was made that it was the last stab. I think most of us would conclude it was though.....one man wouldnt start with a kill wound with a dagger then change to a smaller knife to stab 38 more times. The attack was described as a frenzied attack...to me that sounds like multiple, rapid stabbing.

That would make the larger wound likely a finale...which makes me believe she was still showing some signs of life to warrant the "final" stab. Whether the same person did that final stab is unclear.

Unless the large stab was first...which I would doubt logically....she would have bled fairly substantially before it was made.

I find it interesting that some reports say she was not struggling much at the time, and some that say her clothes were disarrayed and ripped open. Both cannot co-exist, and a 39 stab murder implies the victim was showing signs they were still alive while the attack was going on. Otherwise, why keep on stabbing?

Its that notion that makes me imagine her killer used a final stab to finally kill the woman. Likely that larger one.

Best regards Ally.

[Chava]

I believe Killeen thought the heart blow killed her, so I assume there was less blood than there otherwise would have been. I don't know how else he could have come to that determination.

[Ally]

Or pools of blood mean Jack might have done this....my god, she had 46 holes in her... counting the 39 stabs... to bleed from.

Depends on how quickly she died. If by any chance the heart wound was first, no matter how many stabs were administered they would not have bled all that much comparatively to how she would have bled if the heart wound was last.

I don't know what order the wounds occurred or if it was discussed at any point to indicate whether they knew by blood volume how quickly in the series the kill blow occurred.

[Fisherman]

Well, Ben, there is only so much time at hand, isnīt there? Still, as I said, Iīm glad you directed me towards the podcast. It was very interesting altogether!

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

Glad you enjoyed the podcast, Fish!

I intended to mention your theory at the time, but the ebb and flow of the conversation carried us onto other topics before I got the chance.

Best regards,
Ben

I think its remarkable how many people here seem to find symmetry with 9 stabs to the throat and not the cause of death, and cuts that sever the neck to the spine while the victims are semi or unconscious on the ground, ..which are the cause of death.

Or pools of blood mean Jack might have done this....my god, she had 46 holes in her... counting the 39 stabs... to bleed from.

And the minor conflicting issue of the 2 distinct weapon wounds has taken a backseat to throat stabs...which are being hailed as premature throat slits.

The evidence that is being bantied about now has been bantied about many times already....and the results inconclusive...which they will always will be in this case, and yet we still have "Was Martha a Ripper victim threads" anyway.

There are no new notes, there are just different ways to arrange them.

Best regards all.

[Fisherman]

Jon Guy asks:

"Didn`t the authorities clean the body up before the photo was taken for I.D. purposes ? Cleaning blood away and combing back the hair would be necesary for a positive I.D."

Makes sense, Jon, although we do not know to what extent she needed a combing, since the hair may well have been left untouched at the crime scene. But of course the blood from her neck wounds would have been washed off - and her hair would arguably have become disarranged as she was carried out of George Yard, so the logical answer to your question would be yes; she must have had at least some sort of a make-over before the shot was taken!

The best, Jon!
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Is it possible then that some people have made up this story of Tabram recieving stabs to her neck?

The neck wounds were reported in the (London) Daily News of the 10th August 1888: "Dr. Timothy Robert Kelleene, 28 Brick lane, stated that he was called to the deceased, and found her dead. He examined the body and found 39 punctured wounds. There were no fewer than nine in the throat and 17 in the breast."

DS Swanson also noted that there were neck wounds in an internal police memo.


Edit: I note that some fellow posters have already supplied some sources. Belated thanks to them.

[Jon Guy]

Hello Fisherman

I listened to the podcast too, I hadn`t heard one before and I was impressed.

There was one point I heard, which you mention in your post, and that was Tabram`s apparently unkempt hair. Didn`t the authorities clean the body up before the photo was taken for I.D. purposes ? Cleaning blood away and combing back the hair would be necesary for a positive I.D.

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"I don't know if you've had an opportunity to listen to the R. Michael Gordon podcast, but he seems to share your view on the "scavenger" theory."

Heard that podcast by now, Ben, and yes; Gordon apparently aslo subscribes to a scavenger perspective. Amazing!
However, he has things turned around in relation to my thoughts on it all. He has the soldier using the large weapon and killing Tabram quickly, then fleeing the scene. After that, he has Jack entering the scene, doing the pen-knife bit. And Gordon seems to mean that dammed-up aggression was what made him inflict so may wounds.
He tells us that Tabrams undisturbed hairdo is a pointer to the fact that she died fast and without a struggle.

Problem; Gordon tells us that when Crow saw her at 3.30 she was already dead and had been so for an hour. So, in Gordons wiew, Jack would have accessed the body when Tabram had already been dead one hour plus.
But Killeen emphatically tells us that Tabram LIVED throughout the deed! And that means that the stab to the heart must have come last, and NOT at the very beginning, a full hour or more before the pen-knife was used.
So Gordon will be unmistakably wrong on this point!

Also, the fact that Tabrams hair was in good order does not tell us that the knife was thrust through her heart at an early stage - it only tells us that she did not put up much of a fight. And that may well owe to the blow on the head. After that, she may have been lying neatly on the landing, ripe and ready for the stabbings. And the pool of blood may well have been there as Crow passed by Tabramīs body - mrs Mahoney tells us that the landing was very wide where she lay.
The point on the strange position is an interesting one. But we cannot tell how much light there was when Crow noticed her, and he actually makes a point of priding himself on his good eyesight, implying that it was very hard to see much at the time. So maybe she was lying as she was found when Crow passed by, but the darkness made things indistinguishable to him and he only knew that there was a dark shape lying there.

Thanks for sharing the podcast! Itīs refreshing to hear that an authority like Gordon also recognizes that the two weapons and a number of other things may point to a scavenger perspective!

The best,
Fisherman

[Shelley]

I'm off, early to retire night.......i have some better things to be getting on with.

[Shelley]

Fisherman,
Different type of throat cuttings with some of the canocials than say Stride.

And not at the same with Tabram at all.


JG my other post was irony regarding MJK.