Ripper Victim?

[Shelley]

Absolutely, Gareth.



The Zodiac killer went back to shooting Glenn?

News to me!

Cecilia Shepherd did not survive, and the salient point is that he drastically altered his MO despite the fact that he was otherwise very consistent.



No. I won't. I'll use the Zodiac comparison, thanks, which was perfectly apt for the reason Gareth offered.

Ben,
You ought to read on some other cases were stabbing and shooting has occurred on the same body & victim. Gang related members also carry a knife as well as a gun. In 1888 they usually only carried knifes, i haven't come accross any stories relating to criminals in the east end or those who wanted to protect themselves usually carrying a gun. And no the Zodiac Killer is not an apt reason to use, his intention was just to kill, JTR had a relationship with extracting organs. Now if you were to at least use Ed Gein, that would be more apt.

[Jon Guy]

He still tried to decapitate her head and found it difficult to do with a long thin bladed knife....this doesn't add up Jon....As her head was almost hanging off, he got through the most difficult bit with a long thin bladed knife..The spine cord! you know verterbrae ' Bone ' not just left with a bit of sinew and flesh with skin!

Hello Shelley

I will have to bow to your superior knowledge regarding criminology, I do understand what you are saying but you are incorrect in saying her head was hanging off, this was an error in the press who said that when her scarf was taken off from around her neck at the mortuary her head was hanging on by a flap of skin. Her throat had been cut in a circular fashion twice but the spinal cord was not cut.

This is what Dr Phillips said at the inquest :

The muscular structures between the side processes of bone of the vertebrae had an appearance as if an attempt had been made to separate the bones of the neck.

[Ben]

You ought to read on some other cases were stabbing and shooting has occurred on the same body & victim. Gang related members also carry a knife as well as a gun.

But none of that remotely invalidates the observation that serial killers with otherwise consistent MOs are perfectly capable of changing them very drastically, and that the Tabram-to-Nichols "change" looks ludicrously un-drastic by comparison.

And no the Zodiac Killer is not an apt reason to use, his intention was just to kill, JTR had a relationship with extracting organs.

You don't know when that relationship started, though. He didn't extract any organs from Nichols, but we don't rule her out. It could easily have been something he experimented with at some point in the series, and decided he liked it and wanted to stick with it.

[Shelley]

Shelley writes:

"So Tabram was a bit like the possible two men theory with Stride, to you that is.
Funny, i heard of more than 1 man were rape is concerned but Killing and stabbing, Sorry i find it a bit far fetched, unless our JTR is with a Gang of course such as Emma Smith case."

Every case should be taken on it´s own, Shelley. And if Tabram was a one-killer-case, it was a case where the killer for some reason changed weapons in the midst of stabbing away in a frenzy.
That should give anybody looking at the case a pause, I feel.

The best,
Fisherman

Fisherman,
It is also possible that a soldier had another soldier pal around. Also as soldiers go, it's possible that they can carry more than one weapon at a time.
How do you not know that some macho type soldier wasn't showing off his blade to someone other than Tabram?
And serial killers have not always tested on a human thier first whims, it has shown more common practice on animals or pieces of butchers meat, and a case i show with that is Kurten's joy of sexual wiring with an animal whilst he was stabbing it. Admittedly Kurten was 20th Century, but early 20th Century when they still didn't have DNA testing but fingerprinting was availabile, but not in JTR's time.

[JSchmidt]

Can we please desist from "knowing" JtR's reason to kill and to mutilate? We don't know, we can only speculate about it. Part of this dilemma is that we can neither totally rule out nor totally exclude Martha Tabram. She may either be one of the starting points of a development/evolution that culminated in the horrid murder and subsequent mutilation of MJK or victim of a similarly vicious but unrelated attack. You can argue quite convincing for either thing but I don't think we'll be able to make an absolute judgment with our current knowledge.

[Shelley]

But none of that remotely invalidates the observation that serial killers with otherwise consistent MOs are perfectly capable of changing them very drastically, and that the Tabram-to-Nichols "change" looks ludicrously un-drastic by comparison.



You don't know when that relationship started, though. He didn't extract any organs from Nichols, but we don't rule her out. It could easily have been something he experimented with at some point in the series, and decided he liked it and wanted to stick with it.

Ben,
A 2 month period of so called Mo change with your Zodiac killer as you used as a comparision to uphold what you are arguing as a drastic change of MO, this is using a known change of MO with serial killers that is on average on the change of so called MO in some serial Killers. A 3 week period is no comparision, it is a different killer, and so does your drastic change of Mo senario that is upon average 2 months. So in order to fit your mind Nicholls would have to have had her organ extracted, based on your crossing of arguements, and at the same time it has been mentioned oh don't stick to the consistency, changes of MO has been known in serial killers etc. Are you forgetting human adaptability in an crime scene, and as i've said before there were workmen nearby and the killer could have been disturbed so did not extract organs from Nicholls.
I'll point this out: All those cases of young men who have turned to serial killing to make a name for themselves have studied criminology books and they do drastically change MO as to appear clever, others do it as a means to hide and cover up so as not to have killings attributed to them. However, 1 slip is that they do have a consistency in areas and is a tell tale of thier hand, known as signature, because we cannot get away with the patterns we present in ourselves, just the same as if we use our right hand to write a letter with most of the time, because that's how we have developed, still knowing that we are right handed chose to use our left hand to make a confusion bit in there, but it is based on knowing! Like i have said 20th century cases are hardly a comparison to that of lack of technology Victorian England. Also, repeating myself Serial Killer's in the common band don't usually start on a human it is more common with an animal or a piece of butcher's meat to test out on and see, as with Peter Kurten.
I think it is a far fetched senario that two men attacked Tabram on the same night and in the space of a few hours that one was JTR who administered 2 wounds/cuts.

[Ben]

Like i have said 20th century cases are hardly a comparison to that of lack of technology Victorian England.

I'm not sure what "technology" has to do with the propensity of serial killers to alter their otherwise consistent MO in a short space of time, Shelley.

I think it is a far fetched senario that two men attacked Tabram on the same night and in the space of a few hours that one was JTR who administered 2 wounds/cuts.

You'll have to take that up with the Fishmeister General!

[Shelley]

Hello Shelley

I will have to bow to your superior knowledge regarding criminology, I do understand what you are saying but you are incorrect in saying her head was hanging off, this was an error in the press who said that when her scarf was taken off from around her neck at the mortuary her head was hanging on by a flap of skin. Her throat had been cut in a circular fashion twice but the spinal cord was not cut.

This is what Dr Phillips said at the inquest :

The muscular structures between the side processes of bone of the vertebrae had an appearance as if an attempt had been made to separate the bones of the neck.

Jon,
I find it difficult to understand your argument here, you were the one Jon that said the killer tried to decapitate her head, how do you know this if it wasn't for some cut into the vertabrae? And a description was separate the bones of the neck, the bone had some cutting through it. And not everyone is happy with what Dr Bagster Phillips has said on another note.
Also i have never claimed superior knowledge on criminology, and all criminology does not just entail and evolve around Annie Chapman.
Honestly i think this kind of arguement belittles you in a way and you show yourself up.

[Shelley]

I'm not sure what "tecnhology" has to do with the propensity of serial killers to alter their otherwise consistent MO in a short space of time, Shelley.

Read my post Ben about cover-ups and appearing clever with modern serial killers like the one you used as a basis for argument.............This thread is getting silly and has turned into a bit of mud slinging if possible thread.


You'll have to take that up with the Fishmeister General!

I do not know what you mean here i didn't address it to you Ben????

All i seem to be doing here is repeating myself over again, i've said what i have and that's my contribution on the boards.

[Jon Guy]

Honestly i think this kind of arguement belittles you in a way and you show yourself up.

Oakey dokey, point taken.

In return, can I recomend you read "Ultimate Sourcebook" by Evans and Skinner.

[Shelley]

Throat-cutting deep

As Glenn has pointed out on these boards and he has repeated himself over again as well, as myself. That Martha Tabram did not have any cut to her throat, as those in the caniocal murders. Also he has stated quite correctly that there were deep cuts on the throats as well, not just a throat-cut....DEEP Throat-Cut. So it makes one think also (ALSO) with a 3 week period between Tabram & Nicholls no experimentation on cutting a throat had been made on Tabram.

Fin
Shelley

[Ben]

Tabram & Nicholls no experimentation on cutting a throat had been made on Tabram.

Probably because he learned from experience that shallow cuts don't necessarily fulfill the task of dispatching a victim quickly, compelling him to alter his methods next time around. If he didn't know which arteries needed severing to affect this successfully, he could eradicate all possible doubt by cutting all the way down to the bone.

[Shelley]

Probably because he learned from experience that shallow cuts don't necessarily fulfill the task of dispatching a victim quickly, compelling him to alter his methods next time around. If he didn't know which arteries needed severing to affect this successfully, he could eradicate all possible doubt by cutting all the way down to the bone.

Ulikely Ben, a deep throat cut would ensure death....He's hardly going to dither about with a real live victim that could possibly scream out and figure out this senario:

Ere luv,
let's 'ave a feel of your neck, now where's this artery i've to try and cut, let's 'ave a look at this cut...Blood comes out ' she screams ' and Killer say's ' Oh crap! i haven't cut down enough '...' Can i have another try ...' so she screams again...Killer say's ' Now stop that or you'll get a local bobbies attention and we don't want that now do we?' So she put's her neck forward again for him to see how far down he has to cut then?

How many women in the East-End came to a police station or a hospital claiming someone tried killing them by cutting thier throat?

Rendering Victim Dead...Is Dead and all the killer needs......Plenty of strength & force behind it and this kind of Strength can be found in those mentally ill.

[Ben]

Well, that's sort of my point.

The offender doesn't know much about murder when he takes his first faltering steps of a serial killer. He discovers that general stabbing to the throat or the abdominal region will result in the victim crying out, so he learns the hard way, and makes sure he does the job properly next time around.

[Shelley]

Well, that's sort of my point.

The offender doesn't know much about murder when he takes his first faltering steps of a serial killer. He discovers that general stabbing to the throat or the abdominal region will result in the victim crying out, so he learns the hard way, and makes sure he does the job properly next time around.

Ben,
So with that you possibly rule out that Killer of Nicholls or Chapman had any possible practice of murder?
Did Tabram cry out on a bungled attempt possibly from the Killer guy?.....Possibly drawing in another killer and he say's ' ere lad this is how you do it!' And at the same time not cutting Martha's throat.

Also a really poor east-end chap probably wouldn't know what the bloody heck an artery was, or it's function in the body.

Senario: A little urchin of a lad sat down on the floor as his father came in through the door, ' Here's father 'calls out mother, 'look at the paper father, a woman found dead in bridey's ditch with her throat-cut ' ' Well, dear me mother...Make sure we bolt-up well tonight we don't want anyone murdering us in our beds'....

Urchin & father cotton on that a bit of throat-cutting renders one dead.