Ripper Victim?

[richardnunweek]

Hello Shelley,
I wish you had not brought up the infamous '39 theory' it does not register with Glenn.
The attack on Tabram was a frenzied assault, there are signs of that on Nichols/Chapman/ Eddowes/Kelly, even stride, although not mutilated was madhandled by broadshoulders.
Three different sightings by three witnesses I feel give us a false sense of what really happened.
Mrs Long [hanbury street] observes a man and woman[ believed to be the dead woman] talking quietly.
Mr Lawande,[ church passage] obseves a couple [ the woman believed to be Eddowes][ talking quietly.
George Hutchinson[ commercial street] observes the last victim talking ,and sharing a joke with Astracan, with no hint of menace.
The above witnesses seem to indicate that our killer was initially respectable, and could hold back his murderous impulses, but I ask the question . was the three men seen with these women actually 'Jack'
Why is it not possible that the actual killer of Chapman, entered the yard at number 29 after Mrs Longs elderly man had finished, and walked back out into Hanbury street, and attacked her whilst she was recovering from her recent ordeal?
Why is it not possible that the man seen with Eddowes was no more then a sailor trying his luck , on a woman that was not intrested[ note the hand pushed up against his chest as if to say 'Steady sailor'.
Why is it not possible that the sailor moved on . and Eddowes anxious to get out of his sight cut through Mitre square, where her killer grapped her.?
Why is it not possible that Hutchinsons Astracan man was no more then a casual client who wished for a bit of comfort until the daylight hours, and left at daybreak with kelly very much alive?
And of course as this thread is about Tabram.
Why is it not possible that her killer moved in on her after her previous escort had left the building and found her on the first floor landing.?
If one eliminates the scenerio that gives us a possible 'Charmer' approach, and instead adds my suggestion, that the rough treatment administered by Broadshoulders in Berner street, was proberly from the man that became 'Jack The Ripper'.
No mention of the '39' Glenn, although was tempted.
Regards Richard.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hello Shelley,
No mention of the '39' Glenn, although was tempted.
Regards Richard.

Good sport, Richard.

All the best

[Fisherman]

Glenn writes:

"You are totally wrong about this."

Well, Glenn, one of us is, I´m sure. But you should perhaps contemplate the possibility that he cut for practicalitys sake, only to find that he actually enjoyed the feeling. It can also be argued that he may have wanted to inject fear by what he did, and a deep cut would serve that purpose better. It can also be reasoned that he wanted to bleed his victims off before cutting them open.
In any case, the cut necks may have had a main aim of a practical nature. To argue that it MUST have held a significance for him is to take a leisurely stroll on dangerously thin ice - it may hold, but it may just as well give you a very cold bath.

The best, Glenn!
Fisherman

[Ben]

Ben, I am afraid it is you who fall into the same trap as many others; trying to link the different method of killing in Tabram's murder to Nichols and the Ripper by comparing it to serial killers who REPEATEDLY change their MO

But Glenn, we've just established that there are offenders who do not "repeatedly change their MO", but who are still capable of wildly different methods of dispatch. The Zodiac's MO followed a fairly uniform pattern of shooting people in their cars, but on one occasion he used a knife. That's a huge leap when contrasted with mere stabbing to stab/slashing (Tabram to Nichols), and that's from a serial killer who certainly did not "repeatedlly change his MO".

Then there's Peter Sutcliffe. Not a particularly varied MO either, but he was perfectly capable of both beating women with a gravel-filled sock as well as abdominal mutilation. Several of his victims reflected consistency, but if you rule out the ones that weren't as consistent, you'd be ruling out many of his victims, and all because we made the mistake of fine-tuning an MO too much.

I don't know why you attach more significance to the deep throat cut than you do to the facial mutilations. You've decided that the throat cut must be a component of a deep-seated long-dormant fantasy while the facial mutilations were simply conjured up on a whim. I tend to disagree. I believe that the killer, like many of his ilk, was exploratory in his methods. He experimented with the deep throat cut, decided he liked it, and stuck with it, and as he progressed and experimented further, he decided he liked facial mutilation and stuck with that.

All the best,
Ben

[Ben]

That, in it´s turn, means that the reason he cut Nicholls neck before going for the abdomen was that HE HAD LEARNT FROM EXPERIENCE that a woman may well be noisy or apt to wriggle unless you do something about it first.

Yep, my sentiments exactly, Fish.

I think the notion of exploratory progression on the part of the killer should not be cast aside.

Hi Shelley,

First of all Ben Tabram was found dead on the 6th August 1888 and Nicholls was found dead on 31st August 1888 that is only a period of 3 weeks and 4 days exactly

Which is a longer period of time than 27th September (Lake Berryessa murder) to 11th October (Paul Stine murder), isn't it?

All the best,
Ben

[Shelley]

Ben, I am afraid it is you who fall into the same trap as many others; trying to link the different method of killing in Tabram's murder to Nichols and the Ripper by comparing it to serial killers who REPEATEDLY change their MO.

This is not what we are dealing with here.
The Ripper was not a killer who changed his MO to alarge extent so therefore he can't be compared to such killers. In at least three murders (four, if we include Kelly) he showed a remarkable consistensy in the MAIN FEATURES of the MO and signature.
They're all there: deep throat cut, disembowelling and focus on the genital area. In three of the victims (if we include Kelly) an organ was taken, in two of those it was the womb. The victims that were totally openend up and had organs taken, the intestines were thrown over their shoulder.

But the main points here are the very deep throat cuts and the disembowelling made post mortem.

Now these are all very specific and extreme features, some would say unusual.
You can't compare them with shooting or changing from shooting to stabbing or vice versa (which are all more commonplace methods used by many killers).

I certainly do not with any stretch of the imagination believe that the idea of performing a very deep throat cut (so deep that the head was almost severed) and opening up a body were whims invented in a flash because "that other stuff didn't work".
And in a period of three weeks.

It is extremely silly to even suggest such a thing and I can't believe that you of all people - whom I consider highly intelligent - would buy into it. It's nonsense.

Looking at the Ripper crimes and the modus operandi and signature performed on the bodies, there can be no doubt that these features meant something to the killer and most likely had thier foundation in a longer time of fantasysing.
The magnitude of the throat cuts in themselves are not at all necessary for the killing, they are way over the top for that and therefore has to be considered having am meaning to him beyond "what works or not".

There is no way that I would believe that he would find the cravings for it during a three week break.
The multiple stabbing found on Tabram, however, are quite common features in many murders and not at all profilic to the same extent.

And them, of course, we had the soldier found loitering by PC Barrett near the crime scene at the right time of the murder (where his pal "had gone off with a girl"). And I don't believe the Ripper was a soldier since none was seen in connection with the other crimes.

Tabram was NOT a Ripper victim!

All the best

I agree with many points Glenn has here, however with the basis of Ben's Zodiac killer and Change of so called MO, the Zodiac killer who changed to stabbing his victims survived, so he went back to shooting Glenn to ensure they were dead! Brilliant change of Mo here......Blimey, he changed his Mo ( probably because he read a criminology book somewhere saying that some historical and news making serial killers who are clever change Mo at around 2 months.....remember Glenn i mentioned a general 2 months change of serial Killers Mo with some of these killers years ago to you).
Oh, sure that was clever decided to stab, and your victims survive the stabbing...Blow that! Shooting worked let's try that again.....The Zodiac Killer not only clever but earned himself a name to boot as a clever MO changing serial killer. Pass the whiskey please!

[Shelley]

But Glenn, we've just established that there are offenders who do not "repeatedly change their MO", but who are still capable of wildly different methods of dispatch. The Zodiac's MO followed a fairly uniform pattern of shooting people in their cars, but on one occasion he used a knife. That's a huge leap when contrasted with mere stabbing to stab/slashing (Tabram to Nichols), and that's from a serial killer who certainly did not "repeatedlly change his MO".

Then there's Peter Sutcliffe. Not a particularly varied MO either, but he was perfectly capable of both beating women with a gravel-filled sock as well as abdominal mutilation. Several of his victims reflected consistency, but if you rule out the ones that weren't as consistent, you'd be ruling out many of his victims, and all because we made the mistake of fine-tuning an MO too much.

I don't know why you attach more significance to the deep throat cut than you do to the facial mutilations. You've decided that the throat cut must be a component of a deep-seated long-dormant fantasy while the facial mutilations were simply conjured up on a whim. I tend to disagree. I believe that the killer, like many of his ilk, was exploratory in his methods. He experimented with the deep throat cut, decided he liked it, and stuck with it, and as he progressed and experimented further, he decided he liked facial mutilation and stuck with that.

All the best,
Ben

Ben, for starters you are picking a 20th Century case in comparision of an Old Victorian case. Brilliant Mo, Stabbing didn't work so he's victims survive so he goes back to shooting again that's has worked before. The brains behind that ****-up!. I'll have you know Ben that a Forensic Psychologist & Criminologist has picked a band of Sadists and says that this area of crime is increasing and not just the USA, all over the world, and each crime seems to be getting nastier, in her words shes says it's almost like they are out doing one another including the females! Serial Killer's with modern technology keep a breast, in the Victorian period there was no so called a breast to keep up with, just don't be at the scene that's all to get caught red-handed. Prisoners in prisons are developing thier skills all the time, a little time behind bars for reading and learning from other criminals ( a bit of crime social connection) so to do a better job when they get out of nick!
If you pick another case, use something that's in the same time line will you.

[Sam Flynn]

If you pick another case, use something that's in the same time line will you.

Human behaviour has taken tens of thousands of years to evolve, and the brain structures that underpin motivation and emotion have been around for a thousand times longer. Neither will have changed much over the span of a century. The tools may have changed during that time, but the underlying psychology is unlikely to have altered to any significant degree.

[Shelley]

Glenn writes:

"no attempt to open up the body by post mortem mutilation"

Well, Glenn, then you may perhaps hold the key to why she had a 3x1 inch cut on her lower body - most probably on the lower abdomen? In all fairness, if we are speaking of ticking boxes, that little detail should perhaps not go unnoticed?

And as you well know, I have presented a scenario where we may rule out the 37 "frenzied" wounds, using the very strong argument that they were inflicted by another blade than the one that pierced her heart - and that may well have caused the cut too.

When you state "I will NEVER accept Tabram as a Ripper victim", I think you may be locking onto a stance that may well prove impossible to retain as we go along. I was of the same meaning as you are for many a year, as you know, but things surfaced (John Bennetts pic of George Yard buildings) that lent itself very well to a totally different interpretation, and so I changed my mind. And I for one would not state that I will never change again - Ripperology is not a static science, something I think you will agree on.

The fact that you feel that the evidence existing speaks for Tabram not being a Ripper victim is pretty obvious, and you make a fair case for it. But the good old "never say never" advice may yet apply, Glenn ...!

The best, friend!
Fisherman

Fisherman,
We all have a slip of words, including i will never accept, and i will never consider........But to stick to them in an arguement for this apparent human flaw is a bit one track sided.
Who gives a damn how frenzied the stabs were on Tabram, the main focus is that on Nicholls, it was a possible attempt to extract organs ( but perhaps the killer was disturbed) the mutitlations to her abdomen were not frenzied as with Tabram, Then with Chapman & Eddowes organs were extracted and taken away....it's a bit of a wide criteria that Tabram with her organs still inside her body was puncutured all over the place, to a victim who had her organs extracted and taken away, i mean the same killer for Tabram and Chapman as well as Eddowes at least. Ere now let's see, what about the Killer being a real dab hand at doing torso killings, domestic kiiling, oh never mind that i killed her by cutting her throat i'll go back and just do a bit of neck stabbing, ere i was sure she was dead when i took off her head and an arm or leg or to, but i'll try some arse stabbing!
Blimey, i wonder if JTR read some criminology books and decided to change MO by the recounts of other headline newspapers.

Richard it is silly to surmise a same relationship to women's organs in extraction and taking away, to that of just punturing said organs to kill ....in the space of no less than 3 weeks .

[Ben]

Absolutely, Gareth.

the Zodiac killer who changed to stabbing his victims survived, so he went back to shooting Glenn to ensure they were dead

The Zodiac killer went back to shooting Glenn?

News to me!

Cecilia Shepherd did not survive, and the salient point is that he drastically altered his MO despite the fact that he was otherwise very consistent.

If you pick another case, use something that's in the same time line will you.

No. I won't. I'll use the Zodiac comparison, thanks, which was perfectly apt for the reason Gareth offered.

[Shelley]

Human behaviour has taken tens of thousands of years to evolve, and the brain structures that underpin motivation and emotion have been around for a thousand times longer. Neither will have changed much over the span of a century. The tools may have changed during that time, but the underlying psychology is unlikely to have altered to any significant degree.

Yeap, and also Knowledge building is in that generalisation as well, which has come around in technology too.

[Shelley]

Absolutely, Gareth.



The Zodiac killer went back to shooting Glenn?

News to me!

Cecilia Shepherd did not survive, and the salient point is that he drastically altered his MO despite the fact that he was otherwise very consistent.



No. I won't. I'll use the Zodiac comparison, thanks, which was perfectly apt for the reason Gareth offered.

I read that Celcelia survived for a few days, enough to blab.

[Fisherman]

Shelley writes:

"We all have a slip of words, including i will never accept, and i will never consider........But to stick to them in an arguement for this apparent human flaw is a bit one track sided.
Who gives a damn how frenzied the stabs were on Tabram, the main focus is that on Nicholls, it was a possible attempt to extract organs ( but perhaps the killer was disturbed), Then with Chapman & Eddowes organs were extracted and taken away....it's a bit of a wide criteria that Tabram with her organs still inside her body was puncutured all over the place, to a victim who had her organs extracted and taken away, i mean the same killer for Tabram and Chapman as well as Eddowes at least. Ere now let's see, what about the Killer being a real dab hand at doing torso killings, domestic kiiling, oh never mind that i killed her by cutting her throat i'll go back and just do a bit of neck stabbing, ere i was sure she was dead when i took off her head and an arm or leg or to, but i'll try some arse stabbing!"

I´m not sure, Shelley, if you have read my piece in Ripperologist on Tabrams demise? I may just tell you that I believe that the Ripper inflicted two wounds on Tabram and two only: The cut on the abdomen and the piercing of the sternum and heart.
The 37 other wounds were dealt by another man, perhaps the soldier that "had gone away with a girl", if my guess is correct. On the Tabram thread "Scavenger or predator" I started a discussion on it all. If you need to see my take on things, I recommend indulging in that or in my article in Ripperologist.

The best,
Fisherman

[Shelley]

Shelley writes:

"We all have a slip of words, including i will never accept, and i will never consider........But to stick to them in an arguement for this apparent human flaw is a bit one track sided.
Who gives a damn how frenzied the stabs were on Tabram, the main focus is that on Nicholls, it was a possible attempt to extract organs ( but perhaps the killer was disturbed), Then with Chapman & Eddowes organs were extracted and taken away....it's a bit of a wide criteria that Tabram with her organs still inside her body was puncutured all over the place, to a victim who had her organs extracted and taken away, i mean the same killer for Tabram and Chapman as well as Eddowes at least. Ere now let's see, what about the Killer being a real dab hand at doing torso killings, domestic kiiling, oh never mind that i killed her by cutting her throat i'll go back and just do a bit of neck stabbing, ere i was sure she was dead when i took off her head and an arm or leg or to, but i'll try some arse stabbing!"

I´m not sure, Shelley, if you have read my piece in Ripperologist on Tabrams demise? I may just tell you that I believe that the Ripper inflicted two wounds on Tabram and two only: The cut on the abdomen and the piercing of the sternum and heart.
The 37 other wounds were dealt by another man, perhaps the soldier that "had gone away with a girl", if my guess is correct. On the Tabram thread "Scavenger or predator" I started a discussion on it all. If you need to see my take on things, I recommend indulging in that or in my article in Ripperologist.

The best,
Fisherman

Fisherman,
So Tabram was a bit like the possible two men theory with Stride, to you that is.
Funny, i heard of more than 1 man were rape is concerned but Killing and stabbing, Sorry i find it a bit far fetched, unless our JTR is with a Gang of course such as Emma Smith case.

Ben,
Oh, sorry it wasn't Cecelia that completely survived (she died a few days after), but it was Mageau that survived completley. So much a total of 7 victims when the killer claimed he had done in 37 +....this guy really fancied himself as an anals in history serial killer, and he may not have known that Cecilia hadn't died later, so the **** that didn't work stabbing, i'll go back to shooting seems plausible!

[Fisherman]

Shelley writes:

"So Tabram was a bit like the possible two men theory with Stride, to you that is.
Funny, i heard of more than 1 man were rape is concerned but Killing and stabbing, Sorry i find it a bit far fetched, unless our JTR is with a Gang of course such as Emma Smith case."

Every case should be taken on it´s own, Shelley. And if Tabram was a one-killer-case, it was a case where the killer for some reason changed weapons in the midst of stabbing away in a frenzy.
That should give anybody looking at the case a pause, I feel.

The best,
Fisherman