POLL: Ripper Victim or Not?

[Garza]

Garza - is there a reason why you call Matha "Tabrum"?

Nope.

I have always concluded that Tabram's murder was probably by at least two men, and given her earlier associations, possibly soldiers.

How did you come to that conclusion? I don't think there are any clues to suggest she was murdered by any amount of people.

If Martha has tried to dupe soldier-client, he may have come back with his mates to teach her a lesson.

So they come back to find her and in all of Whitechapel they find her in an obscure apartment landing? Or they managed to find her and drag her in silence so they murder her in front of a person's front door? In the passageway where many people lived? Not only do they kill her, they seem to go all Brutus on her ass and stab her many many times because she duped a soldier? Even in the thighs? Why the thighs? Even in her genetials? Why the genetials?

I see no similarities or consistency with the Nichols killing months later.

You're right. No similarities or consistencies with Nichols. Except for the manual strangulation... and except for the wounds being inflicted on her when she was lying on the ground...and except for having wounds inflicted on her while she was unconsious/dead...and except her legs being open wide...and except having wounds that would exceeded the need to kill her...and except the victim was soliciting before she called killed...and except the interest in her gentials...and except it was done it silence with people sleeping mere metres away.

Other than that. Completely different cases I agree.

[Phil H]

Even in her genetials? Why the genetials?

Well, she was a prostitute, and last time I heard, sex involves the genitals.

Clearly we disagree on the remaining issues - you are welcome to yuor views, of course. I regret that your casual attitude to the naming of the victim rather tells me something about how to assess your other views.

Phil H

[Garza]

[B]Even in her genetials? Why the genetials?[/B

Well, she was a prostitute, and last time I heard, sex involves the genitals.]

True, why stab her there and her thighs and so many times if it was just to get your money back from a prostitute?

Clearly we disagree on the remaining issues - you are welcome to yuor views, of course. I regret that your casual attitude to the naming of the victim rather tells me something about how to assess your other views.

Phil H

Phil, are you really going to deflect the argument to state some faux outrage that I mispelled a letter, therefore making me non-sympathetic to Martha? I have nothing but respect for these women as individuals - I think my post history suggests that.

It's nice that you can ignore people's arguments like that though without answer.

[Brenda]

Brenda - are you basing your remarks on the mortuary photograph?

Can we really infer so much?

Could not a mortuary assistant or undertaker have brushed her hair? She appears to have been posed in a way that hides the worst of what was done to her.

If they cleaned the blood (if any) from her hair, they perhaps rearranged it.

Phil H

Yes, from the mortuary photograph. Maybe the assistants did brush her hair. I guess I'm just used to "Don't touch the victim" till scene processed.

[Jon Guy]

This adds nothing to the conversation....just always wanted to point out that Martha Tabram's hair was neatly styled for someone that had just been murdered. She seemed to have fairly long hair and it only looks like maybe the back had gotten a bit loosened. Otherwise hardly a strand out of place.

Hi Brenda

Tabram was wearing a black bonnet when she was murdered.

The photos were taken solely for purposes of identification (except the Kelly photos which were taken to preserve the crime scene, and her murder happened in her room so there was no real need for identification.)

Dr Killeen performed the post mortem early in the morning so there`s a good chance the photo was taken after the post mortem in which Killeen opened up Tabram`s skull.

The Doctor, his assistant, the police, the photographer or even perhaps Mr Mann, the mortuary keeper (take your pick), would have brushed the hair back (as with the other victims) to ensure the features were clearly visible.

[RavenDarkendale]

How did you come to that conclusion? I don't think there are any clues to suggest she was murdered by any amount of people.

What Phil H is referring to is the "Two weapons, two killers theory." Of the 39 stab wounds all but one used what has been called a "pocket knife", the only other wound, piercing the sternum, a "dagger or bayonet." The problem I have with this is exactly what kind of weapon is meant by a "pocket knife". I collect knives, and a "pocket knife" for me can run up to a four inch blade, which could pierce the sternum given enough force.

I don't think that a 39 stab flurry wound indicate two men, one of whom we are to suppose attacked in a murderous fury while the other waited to precisely place his stab in the sternum. Or maybe the sternum stab was first, the man leaves, and the sexual sadist moves in for his bloody rampage. I don't buy either theory. I believe all 39 the work of one man, and if, and this is a big if, there were two blades he had both of them.

[woocus]

Please forgive me if I'm out of line here, my first post. I do believe Martha was the 1st victim and the catalyst for the other murders. But before I speculate I would ask what information is available of her two sons. Can anyone help or point me in the right direction?

[Haskins]

I think it more likely than not that Martha was a ripper victim, so I voted yes in this poll. However, we can't (of course) be totally sure, especially in light of the difference in MO. I think if Macnaughton has listed her then she would have been amongst the canonicals. He didn't of course, but then he wasn't actually there at the time of the murders and has been shown to be unreliable in other respects. Anderton and Abberline, who both were working on the case in the autumn of 88, reportedly believed Martha to have been a ripper victim.

[Bridewell]

Anderton?

Anderton?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Anderton

is too young surely?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_..._Yard_official)

is more likely.

Just kidding - I know what you meant.

[J6123]

what a fascinating topic. Tabram's killer was cleary a maniac at high risk of offending again, so for that reason i am tempted to vote yes. still, it is a difficult one.

[Ginger]

What Phil H is referring to is the "Two weapons, two killers theory." Of the 39 stab wounds all but one used what has been called a "pocket knife", the only other wound, piercing the sternum, a "dagger or bayonet." The problem I have with this is exactly what kind of weapon is meant by a "pocket knife". I collect knives, and a "pocket knife" for me can run up to a four inch blade, which could pierce the sternum given enough force.

I've always kind of wondered if the 'pocket knife' got stuck in the sternum, and the murderer had to wiggle it back and forth to work it loose, so that it left a wound that appeared to be from a larger, thicker blade.

[Harry D]

Voted yes originally but on further reflection, I think due to the frenzied nature of her assault, Tabram was a victim of one of the gangs terrorizing prostitutes in the area. Whoever did old Martha in was (were?) a stabber, and the murders that followed were the work of a slasher. While it could be seen as a 'trial run' by the killer, I don't think he would drastically change his MO like that in a matter of weeks.

[El White Chap]

Good poll and quite interestingly divided more towards her being a victim by the same hand as the C5.

Would perhaps be worth bringing together the opinions of the 'top regarded' ripperologists to gauge what the consensus is surrounding Tabram's murder.

Personally, I've have never entertained or subscribed to Martha being a ripper victim. Location wise, MO wise etc etc. From my limited experience and even the many theories I've been open to consider, there simply isn't enough linking her with the others.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I think there is a strong chance that Tabram is the first victim.

I think the killer discovered something about him while doing this, and he refined his M.O., but the signature, the intent, is the same. Plus, being completely in the dark, and close to tenants apartments, he had to be careful. He might have been interrupted.

I think he was interrupted most of the time, until he killed MJK, which would be his masterpiece. He was one sick and lucky (to escape) bastard.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Hi Mike
Absolutely agree-good point.

I also think that its a good chance this pattern is job related, ie the ripper was employed in a job where he was able to troll for victims at the end or beginning of the month but not in the 20 day middle. perhaps he was either off work at those killing times---- or out of town(or working) on the non killing time frame. Is there any type of job at that time that would match up with this? Perhaps a question for a good researcher.

I looked quickly at the moon phases, just for fun. No specific patterns.

Tabram: killed on a new moon.
Nichols: killed 2 days past 2nd half moon.
Chapman: killed 2 days passed new moon.
Stride/Eddowes: killed 2 days passed 2nd half moon.
Kelly: killed 5 days passed new moon.