POLL: Ripper Victim or Not?

[DVV]

How does it work that you voted twice, David? (Will you do that at the Présidentielles too?)
I voted yes.

Hi Maria, I voted yes too. At the Présidentielles I'll vote no.

[DVV]

Hi Harry

I tend to think Tabram a Ripper murder.

So do I.

Pobably the first killing in the series.

That I doubt. I agree with Sugden that the Millwood case "has much in common with Martha's", and that "both women could easily have encountered the same man".
And the Smith's case has SO much in common with Horsnell's...
And both Horsnell and Tabram dossed at 19 Geroge Street....

[harry]

Dave,
I would agree that Millwood probably was a ripper victim,and would have been the first killed by him,if there was was more proof his attack alone caused her death.

[Sally]

And both Horsnell and Tabram dossed at 19 Geroge Street....

As did Pearly Poll. Maybe she ran off when she learned of Tabram's death because she feared she might be next.

[Monty]

Didn't know where to put this so chose here.

RIP Martha. Whatever our views are, you didn't deserve it.

Monty

[Tom_Wescott]

I second that, Monty. I have been researching the events surrounding her death quite feverishly these last few months, and am writing a rather large section on 'Pearly Poll' as we speak (well, as soon as I'm done being distracted by the boards!). And I'm ashamed to admit that, despite all this, I didn't realize today was the anniversary of her murder until I opened this thread and read your post.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Barnaby]

I am in the minority who voted no, although I really go back and forth. JTR's whole objective seems to be opening the body, removing organs, etc. And while I can see that the methodology he used to accomplish this might change rapidly based on experience (for example, multiple stab wounds to strangulation/throat cutting to cause death), I don't see the overall objective changing this quickly. The fact remains that Tabram was not ripped like the others. With Stride one can argue that Jack was interrupted; I simply don't know enough to say if this could be argued here as well.

[Abby Normal]

I am in the minority who voted no, although I really go back and forth. JTR's whole objective seems to be opening the body, removing organs, etc. And while I can see that the methodology he used to accomplish this might change rapidly based on experience (for example, multiple stab wounds to strangulation/throat cutting to cause death), I don't see the overall objective changing this quickly. The fact remains that Tabram was not ripped like the others. With Stride one can argue that Jack was interrupted; I simply don't know enough to say if this could be argued here as well.

Hi Barnaby

The similarities with the others are overwhelming:

Prostitute
Killed on bank Holiday
Late at night
Unknown assailant
murdered by knife
genitals/abdoman targeted
found laying on back legs spread
skirt lifted
In same area as others
In same time frame as others
probably inebriated
Nobody heard/saw a thing

Also, the time frame sequence is interesting:
Tabram Killed first week of the month
Nichols last week of the month
Chapman first week of the month
Stride/Eddowe last week of the month
Kelly first week of the month

See the pattern here?

Also, the dissimilarity of the sig of cut throat/ripping open and removing organs can be explained by the simple fact that the ripper was in the process of learning how to kill more efficiantly and what "turned him on". Many serial killers first kills are awkward, bungled and dont display there mature MO and or sig.

I think the odds are she was a ripper victim.

[Michael W Richards]

....Also, the time frame sequence is interesting:
Tabram Killed first week of the month
Nichols last week of the month
Chapman first week of the month
Stride/Eddowe last week of the month
Kelly first week of the month

Hi Abby Normal,

I was curious too about the pattern you described above because it shows that from Martha to Mary the kills were either on the last 2 days of a month or during the first 9 of the next.

What that represents is approx 20 days of each month during the Ripper scare that kills did not occur. The same 20 days.

That sort of disagrees with an uncontrolled mental affliction because its improbable that he would have been foiled in all other attempts during those same 20 days of each month, or have chosen to kill only during the same 10 or 11 days of the month. Logically if he was incapable controlling himself as a killer then we would not see such a consistent pattern.

Best Regards,

Mike R

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby Normal,

I was curious too about the pattern you described above because it shows that from Martha to Mary the kills were either on the last 2 days of a month or during the first 9 of the next.

What that represents is approx 20 days of each month during the Ripper scare that kills did not occur. The same 20 days.

That sort of disagrees with an uncontrolled mental affliction because its improbable that he would have been foiled in all other attempts during those same 20 days of each month, or have chosen to kill only during the same 10 or 11 days of the month. Logically if he was incapable controlling himself as a killer then we would not see such a consistent pattern.

Best Regards,

Mike R

Hi Mike
Absolutely agree-good point.

I also think that its a good chance this pattern is job related, ie the ripper was employed in a job where he was able to troll for victims at the end or beginning of the month but not in the 20 day middle. perhaps he was either off work at those killing times---- or out of town(or working) on the non killing time frame. Is there any type of job at that time that would match up with this? Perhaps a question for a good researcher.

[Supe]

My opinion is she was not a Ripper victim, for reasons well explained in my article "Martha Tabram: Does She or Doesn't She" in Ripperologist 94 (August 2008).

Don Souden.

[007]

I lean towards a yes vote. I've always thought that the similarities (as noted by Abby Normal above) are just too much to be coincidental, and outweigh the dissimilarities. imho.

[Barnaby]

Also, the dissimilarity of the sig of cut throat/ripping open and removing organs can be explained by the simple fact that the ripper was in the process of learning how to kill more efficiantly and what "turned him on".

I appreciate the similarities and the timeline, which is why I go back and forth on this issue. But I actually struggle with the above. I totally understand how he might learn to kill more efficiently but doubt "what turns him on" is going to change much from Tabram to, say, Chapman.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Barnaby. You're not alone in your frustration. There are good sides to both arguments. And I do recommend everyone read Don's essay for a solid argument to rule Tabram out as a Ripper victim. But that's not to say I rule her out. I'm undecided.

However, regarding your comment to Abby about what 'turns him on' not changing, you have to think of murder in this regard like a normal person thinks about sex. When you're new at it, a lot more turns you on than when you're more experienced at it and you become harder to please and your fantasies become more sophisticated. If we assume for a moment that Tabram's killer went on to kill some or all of the other women, then he was like a virgin again, only in regards to murder, and if not fully satisfied by an experience, he would think harder about the next one, and you'd see changes and escalation. I don't mean to sound crude, but the first time you do 'over the shirt', it's very exciting...until after you've 'been there, done that', then nothing but under the shirt will suffice...and so on...it's a progression. Not for all killers, but for some.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Barnaby]

Hi Tom,

I understand that habituation occurs, but one doesn't go from Playboy to snuff films overnight!

I just think it would take more than one or two murders for Jack to get bored.

Best,

Barnaby