overkill

[perrymason]

I don't know about "frequently more filthy", Garry. Model Dwellings usually had strict rules and rotas for keeping the communal passageways in good order.

Which is supported by the fact that not one drop of blood was found on the steps to the Model Homes off Goulston....the search itself implying that it would have been visible if there. That to me means the steps and landings were reasonably free of dirt and refuse.

All the best.

[Sam Flynn]

Good observation, Mike.

[perrymason]

Good observation, Mike.

Sometimes I get lucky Sam.

All the best mon frere

[Shelley]

I did have a look at one time concerning George Yard Buildings, i thought i came accross some tenants that appeared to use some ' occupations ' that were a cover for those involved with prostitution, so it could be that who ever attacked Tabram, and possibility for a second man at the scene of Tabram's killing may have been a guy that was ' pimping ' these unfortunate women. Just leaving a thought here about it.

[halomanuk]

It is certainly something a pimp in 1888 (or 2009 in fact) could quite easily do,if she had been warned off his 'patch' a few times and still brought clients back there.
Definately possibly Shelley,in most places at that time.

[Lozle]

Hello,

On the point of "pimping" and the individual doing the "pimping" murdering or playing a part in a frenzied attack on Martha Tabram is a more than reasonable statement, however, I doubt the individual doing the "pimping" would intentionally try to kill Martha Tabram as it would ultimately cut their own income down.

I agree, the individual doing the "pimping" quite possibly could attack one of the women at some point to set an example to other women to put them in a constant state of panic. However, the attack on Martha Tabram seems to indicate an act with the intention of killing her, what with the 38stabs to the throat / breasts / stomach and another stab wound in the area of her heart. Whether the individual attacking Martha Tabram was in such an emotional state they just couldn't control themselves - which is my personal belief - is quite plausible, which could therefore be committed by anyone Martha Tabram may have upset.

I would think that if a pimp were to "have it out" with her to scare her so she would give them money, there would be a verbal altercation, threats made or the "pimp" could quite possibly beat her up, but I doubt they would have the intention to kill one of his sources of income.

Many thanks and all the best.

[halomanuk]

Hello Lauren,
If,however,Tabram was NOT one of his but was operating on his turf all the time in the George yard Buildings and he had warned her many times to stop,then he may have had to do it to save face in his own area.
Or he might have wanted to do it - hence the frenzy involved.

Just a theory,

Hope you are well Lauren.

[Shelley]

Hi Lozle & halomanuk,

I think that pimps would generate a better source of income from much younger prostitutes, rather than old duckies like Tabram, Tabram wouldn't be that much of a bet for supplying pimps with much money, so if a pimp wanted to let off some steam with nasty violence he's likely to target an older woman rather than a younger one. It's likely that Tabram was only a part time prostitute, but a source for some income never the less, she did have a drink problem after all.

[perrymason]

Hi all,

In my opinion based on the descriptions, photos, histories and status at the time of their deaths, I dont think its reasonable to assume that Martha Tabram, Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman would have had pimps.

We know Martha picked up at least one client on her own, with Poll, we know that Polly was earning and drinking it right away which doesnt sound like any pimp could have collected any "commissions" or that she was concerned about such circumstances, and Annie stayed out even when sick because she had to earn on her own, without anyones help or "marketing". Pimps do bring or send clients to the women as well.

And I say this with respect for the women, but all three of these women were not attractive in the conventional, marketable sense. Physically, and by their age. By that information though it would seem that Martha fits quite well into the group. Its when you look further into it that you see this was no solo mutilator that killed her.

I believe its very fair to assume that there were 2 weapons. Assuming 1 man wielded both would be hard to explain.

Best regards all.

[FrankO]

In my opinion based on the descriptions, photos, histories and status at the time of their deaths, I dont think its reasonable to assume that Martha Tabram, Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman would have had pimps.

Good point, Michael. For a change, I fully agree with you.

I believe its very fair to assume that there were 2 weapons. Assuming 1 man wielded both would be hard to explain.

It’s fair to suggest that 2 weapons were used, but to assume it, would go a little too far in my view. To assume that 1 man used both knives is not so hard to explain, although I admit that perhaps it is a little hard to imagine. But 1 man administering 37 stabs and that the other only inflicting 1 stab (leaving the cutlike-wound to the private part aside for the moment) doesn’t seem feasible either.

Cheers, Mike!
Frank

[perrymason]

It’s fair to suggest that 2 weapons were used, but to assume it, would go a little too far in my view. To assume that 1 man used both knives is not so hard to explain, although I admit that perhaps it is a little hard to imagine. But 1 man administering 37 stabs and that the other only inflicting 1 stab (leaving the cutlike-wound to the private part aside for the moment) doesn’t seem feasible either.

Cheers, Mike!
Frank

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the pat..it is nice to agree on some things ...., and on the above...if the single wound is only intended to be a kill wound, it might makes more sense seeing 2 men using the two weapons.

That large dagger or bayonet wound might have been partially a mercy stab. She would be in horrible pain, but perhaps still breathing after all those stabs....Killeen did say ALL the wounds were caused in "life"...one final stab to once and for all kill her.

A second man comes into the picture, sees the situation...and if the first man is still there, he may do this to help make sure that no-one is going to testify against his pal.

Military allegiances are incredibly strong....if need be, they will protect each other the rest of their lives.

All the best Frank

[FrankO]

Hi again Michael,

I don’t particularly believe in a mercy stab. Whoever dealt Tabram at least those 37 stabs, wasn’t pitying her in the least. So, it was more likely a stab to finish her off, although it's not clear if that stab to the sternum was the one that also pierced her heart.

Anyway, in my view, every scenario involving 2 men that I’ve heard so far, seems just as ‘constructed’ or ‘artificial’ as the scenario I recently suggested of one man changing from one knife to the other to inflict one or two last wounds.

The best!
Frank

[perrymason]

Hi again Michael,

I don’t particularly believe in a mercy stab. Whoever dealt Tabram at least those 37 stabs, wasn’t pitying her in the least. So, it was more likely a stab to finish her off, although it's not clear if that stab to the sternum was the one that also pierced her heart.

Anyway, in my view, every scenario involving 2 men that I’ve heard so far, seems just as ‘constructed’ or ‘artificial’ as the scenario I recently suggested of one man changing from one knife to the other to inflict one or two last wounds.

The best!
Frank

Fair enough Frank....but in this instance 2 killers is to me the more likely of the solutions. As we discussed...one man wielding both weapons yet using the large one only once doesnt fit....he uses a small one 38 times in a frenzy and a large one only once?

The only way 2 men is not the best answer here is if there was only one type of blade used on Martha.....and that would directly refute the opinion of the man that inspected the wounds.

All the best amigo

[Sam Flynn]

What if he wiggled his penknife?

[FrankO]

What if he wiggled his penknife?

When having to choose between 2 men with 2 different knives and 1 knife only being used once, 1 man using 2 different knives, and wiggling the penknife, this last scenario seems the easiest and most feasible.